November 13, 2024 | Hearing on Unidentified Anomalous/UFO Phenomena

Congressional Hearing on Unidentified Aerial Phenomena

This chapter covers a historic joint hearing of two U.S. House subcommittees, co-chaired by Chairwoman Nancy Mace and Chairman Glenn Grothman, convened to address growing concerns over Unidentified Aerial Phenomena (UAPs). The hearing sought to increase transparency about government programs and reports long regarded as shrouded in secrecy. Chairwoman Mace described the session as a crucial step toward accountability, praising colleagues who had pushed relentlessly for answers about sightings reported by military pilots. The committee examined claims that some UAP encounters involve technology beyond current scientific understanding or even non-human intelligence. Notable testimony referenced statements by figures like former National Security Advisor H.R. McMaster, who acknowledged phenomena that defy explanation, and Army Colonel Carl Nell, who suggested that non-human intelligence has interacted with humanity. Despite resistance from some within the government who feared disclosure, the committee insisted on confronting the issue openly to serve the public interest.

[0.03s]

Unidentified Aerial Phenomena Discussion

A congressional hearing on unidentified aerial phenomena (UAPs) is held to discuss the topic and gather information. The chairman of the committee expresses gratitude for the witnesses' attendance and notes that the hearing builds upon a previous public hearing. The discussion focuses on the lack of understanding regarding UAPs, the importance of transparency in government institutions, and the need for evidence-based inquiry.

[559.39s]
Mr. Garcia, U.S. Representative

And I know that for many of you, this has been a difficult process, but I'm very grateful to have you with us today. And thank you for joining us. I also want to note that today's hearing builds on a quite, I think, also historic public hearing that we had many months ago that Mr. Grothman and others helped lead in this very same hearing room where I believe we began a really important public conversation about UAPs. And so I want to thank him for that. And I especially want to thank Chairwoman Mays for her continued advocacy on this topic. I also want to start today with some facts. We know that there are objects or phenomena observed in our airspace, as your witnesses will testify, and also possibly in our oceans. In many cases, we don't know what they are, and this is, of course, why we're discussing UAPs.

[604.11s]
Mr. Garcia, U.S. Representative

Now, the All-Domain Anomaly Resolution Office, AERO, has reported hundreds of UAPs that remain, quote, uncharacterized and unattributed, and which, quote, appear to have demonstrated unusual flight characteristics or performance capabilities and require... further analysis. This is our own AERO office. Now, we shouldn't prejudge what they might be. I'm certainly not going to. We need evidence. But we are detecting things, and we know that we don't understand them, and this is worth investigating. Now, the American people have legitimate questions, and I believe it's critical that Congress should help address them. This is about the truth and science and facts. Now, transparency and faith in our institutions is vital in a good democracy. Now, I'm proud to say that this hearing will build on that important bipartisan work, and I want to thank everyone for being involved, including members of our committee.

[653.32s]
Mr. Garcia, U.S. Representative

Now, in our last hearing in July, we heard testimony that a significant number of pilots of major airlines have witnessed UAPs as well, but have no real confidential way of reporting them to the government. We heard that commercial pilots who encounter UAPs may be hesitant to speak openly due to stigma or fear of retaliation. We also know that Aero has reported that, and I want to quote, that most reports still reflect a bias towards restricted military airspace, a result of reporting from military personnel and sensors present in such areas. And so the lack of ability for civilian pilots raises real safety concerns and limits our ability to understand UAPs. UAPs. This is a particular piece of this conversation that I am very interested in. Now, our last hearing inspired us to introduce the Safe Airspace for Americans Act, joined by Chairman Grothwin, Chairwoman Mace, and a bipartisan group of co-sponsors.

▶ ⚠ Commercial pilots face challenges in reporting UAPs due to lack of confidential channels and concerns about stigma or retaliation, raising safety issues and limiting understanding.

[701.86s]
Mr. Garcia, U.S. Representative

I see some of our leaders from Safe Airspace for Americans Act here, and that would create a safe reporting for UAP process, which we want to continue to do. Now, members of both parties and senior officials in multiple administrations have now taken an interest in this issue. Mainstream media in many cases have beginning to take more of an interest in this issue, and we should all be proud to carry that work and build confidence for the American people. I believe we can always be more transparent. To me, this hearing and others are simply about the truth and getting to the facts of what these UAPs actually are. It's very important that we show that Democrats and Republicans in Congress can work together to cut through misinformation and look for a serious and thoughtful way to have the discussion in public. Many of us have also called for additional public hearings to discuss UAPs.

▶ ⚠ The Safe Airspace for Americans Act aims to establish a secure process for UAP reporting, reflecting bipartisan efforts to enhance transparency and data collection.

[751.56s]
Mr. Garcia, U.S. Representative

This should be a topic that continues on throughout the Congress so that we can gather more information, data, and work with the relevant agencies to gather more information. Finally, I just want to add that those that are here on this dais, many of us have participated also in classified briefings as well, and where we have also gained a lot of important, I think, and interesting information, at least I personally think. And so with that information, we want to continue today's hearing, and I thank all of our witnesses for being here. And with that, I'd like to yield back.

[782.49s]
Nancy Mace, U.S. Representative

Thank you, Mr. Garcia, and I'd now like to recognize Mr. Grothman for a five-minute introduction.

[788.24s]
Glenn Grothman, U.S. Representative

Thank you. Good morning. I'd like to thank our witnesses for being here one more time. This is a topic I've been interested in since eighth grade. I'd like to thank Ms. Mace for working with me on this topic and for making this a joint subcommittee hearing. Last year, the Subcommittee on National Security of the Board of Foreign Affairs held a historic hearing to understand the potential national security risk of unidentified anomalous phenomena, or UAPs. We heard from former Navy Commander David Fravor, who shared firsthand experience with the UAP, engaged while on duty in the Pacific. We learned from David Gresh, a former member of the intelligence community, who revealed the supposed existence of secret government programs hidden from congressional oversight. Additionally, former military pilot Ryan Graves informed us of the limited ways in which the military and commercial pilots can report UAP sightings.

▶ ⚠ Most UAP reports originate from military airspace, indicating a bias in available data and underscoring the need for civilian pilot input.

[840.90s]
Glenn Grothman, U.S. Representative

Since that last hearing, I've led several briefings with government agencies to deepen my understanding with these issues. First, the Department of Defense Inspector General's Office informed us that the Department of Defense does not have a streamlined process for service members to report UAP activity. Since then, the Joint Chiefs have implemented standards for UAP reporting across the services. The Intelligence Community Inspector General informed us that whistleblowers often fear retaliation for reporting mismanagement of highly sensitive government projects or information. Finally, AARO has expressed to the committee that like any other federal government agency, it's faced challenges in its establishment, specifically in in hiring staff to manage UAP historical records and coordinating with other federal agencies.

▶ Classified briefings have provided members with additional insights into UAPs, highlighting the importance of transparency and public discussion.

[890.50s]
Glenn Grothman, U.S. Representative

While these agencies have been helpful to us in understanding the challenges that come from collecting UAP data, none of them have been able to substantiate the claims made at this hearing last year by David Grush. Despite our committee members endlessly questioning these agencies inside and outside of a SCIF, I hope our witnesses today will be able to provide evidence and content that is worthwhile to our pursuits of eliminating government waste and increasing transparency. To help alleviate some of the roadblocks, I'm supportive of measures that were included in last year's National Defense Authorization Act to increase transparency and improve record-keeping measures when it comes to UAPs. But I believe there's still more work to go. I co-led the Safe Airspace for Americans Act with running member Garcia, which required which requires the Federal Aviation Administration to develop procedures to collect UAP data from civilian aviators.

▶ ⚠ A mysterious drone swarm incident at Langley Air Force Base underscores the potential security risks posed by UAPs near sensitive military installations.

[945.76s]
Glenn Grothman, U.S. Representative

I look forward to working with members of Congress to see that this legislation and other UAP legislation crosses the finish line. I'm deeply alarmed by the reporting of the massive drone swarm that flew over Langley Air Force Base in Virginia last December. Langley is the home of the first fighter wing, which maintains half of the F-22s in the U.S. Air Force inventory. Reports of this incident indicate these drones were roughly 20 feet long, flying more than 100 miles an hour at an altitude of over 3,000 feet. Yet the origin of these drones and their operators remains a mystery. This incident and other sightings near sensitive military installations highlights the complexity of the UAP challenge facing our intelligence, defense, and homeland security committees.

Investigating Unidentified Aerial Phenomena

The transcript excerpt discusses the importance of transparency and bipartisanship in addressing unidentified aerial phenomena (UAPs) and their implications on national defense. It highlights the need for updated policies, effective interagency cooperation, and intelligence sharing to address emerging threats. The speakers also emphasize the importance of respecting national security limits while providing information and oversight to the public.

[999.60s]
Glenn Grothman, U.S. Representative

Whether these phenomena are the result of foreign adversaries developing advanced technologies or something else entirely, we must take them seriously, investigate them thoroughly, and assess their implications on national defense. The repeated UAP sightings around sensitive military sites underscores the need for innovative defensive strategies beyond traditional measures. They also highlight the urgent need for updated policies to address emerging threats as well as more effective interagency cooperation and intelligence sharing. However, none of this is going to be possible without transparency. For far too long, critical information about UAPs has been either classified or ignored, leaving the American public and key congressmen without clarity needed to make informed decisions. Declassifying reports and fostering a more open dialogue about UAPs will not only increase the public trust, but also encourage collaboration between government, the scientific community, and our allies.

▶ ⚠ UAP sightings near sensitive military sites emphasize the need for innovative defense strategies and updated policies to address emerging threats.

▶ ⚠ Transparency is crucial, as classified information about UAPs has hindered informed decision-making by Congress and the public.

[1065.84s]
Glenn Grothman, U.S. Representative

Quite frankly, there's been things that have been kept secret that is, I think, old enough that there is no reason it shouldn't be released, regardless of any so-called private information. A transparent approach will allow us to share insights, identify patterns, and develop new strategic defenses. As we continue to investigate these phenomena, we must do so with a mindset of protecting our country, advancing scientific discovery, and upholding the trust of the American people, who right now I don't think have trust. And it's just obvious I don't have trust. We cannot shy away from the unknown, especially when the stakes are so high. I look forward to discussing these matters with the witnesses today. I'm hopeful we can learn from the testimony and come out of this hearing with actionable ideas to advance UAP transparency. Actually, the idea is just to say, in my mind, go back 15 years and everything has to be released.

▶ ⚠ Declassifying old UAP-related information could enhance trust and collaboration between government, scientists, and allies.

[1125.94s]
Glenn Grothman, U.S. Representative

I'm hopeful that we can learn from their testimony and come out of this hearing. And with that, I yield back.

[1131.05s]
Nancy Mace, U.S. Representative

Thank you. I will now recognize Mr. Moskowitz for a five-minute introduction.

[1135.14s]
Jared Moskowitz, U.S. Representative

Thank you, Chairwoman. Good morning, everyone. I first want to thank the chairs and ranking members for holding the hearing today on this topic and, again, having a second hearing. I want to thank the witnesses for coming forward today to share your expertise on UAPs and the need to build trust through transparency. But first, I want to mention, you might be wondering why Chairman Comer has allowed me to be a ranking member today, but It's really only because our dear friend Jerry Connolly is not here. As Chairwoman Mace mentioned, he was diagnosed with esophageal cancer, and all of us on this committee know Jerry, and he's a fighter, and we're praying for him and hoping for his speedy recovery. So today's hearing marks this committee's second meeting dedicated to UAP transparency. I was pleased, as I know all of us are, on the bipartisanship

[1191.29s]
Jared Moskowitz, U.S. Representative

that existed in last year's hearing, and even though we can't talk about what happens in the classified settings, the bipartisanship that has existed in those settings with the questions members have asked. Last year's hearing was a great example of open dialogue about UAPs, and we must remain committed to sharing information with the American people. And I think you see that commitment based on the people here and the commitment across the political spectrum. I personally have worked with multiple members of this committee, but I want to particularly thank Congressman Burchette, Mace, Luna, and Garcia. for working on bipartisan pieces of legislation. In recent years, Congress has taken numerous bipartisan steps towards greater transparency. In 2022, in the NDAA, we created the All-Domain Anomaly Resolution Office to investigate unidentified flying objects. along with ODNI, release an unclassified report on UAP sightings.

[1252.34s]
Jared Moskowitz, U.S. Representative

Of the 366 sightings included in the report, 171 remain uncharacterized, with some of these appearing to have demonstrated unusual flight characteristics or performance capabilities. That's a nice way of saying we don't want to tell you what they are. In March, Arrow revealed a report on the historical record of U.S. government involvement with UAPs, which covered investigatory efforts going back from 1945 to the present day. Earlier this year, I joined Congressman Burchette to introduce the UAP Transparency Act, which would require the declassification of all documents related to UAPs with many other members of this committee. In fiscal year 2024, the NDA required the National Archives and Records Administration to establish the Unidentified Anonymous Phenomena Records Collection. This collection will include digital copies of all unidentified UAP records that can be publicly disclosed.

▶ ⚠ Bipartisan efforts in Congress have led to initiatives like the All-Domain Anomaly Resolution Office and the UAP Transparency Act, promoting greater transparency.

[1304.18s]
Jared Moskowitz, U.S. Representative

This commitment in transparency is vitally important and unnecessary over-classification has led to a void of information, which has allowed theories over the decades to foster. When the American people and members of Congress ask, are reports of UAPs credible, we're met with stonewalling. We're met with responses of, I can't tell you. And in fact, we're met with People not wanting us to have hearings. We're met with people not wanting us to ask you questions. In fact, many of us were told not to ask some of you certain questions on certain topics. In a time of heightened distrust of our government institutions, I believe more transparency is not only needed but is possible. And obviously we can respect national security limits, but we also have to provide our constituents with the information and oversight that they have tasked us for. As part of this, government agencies must maintain open lines of communication with members of Congress.

▶ ⚠ The National Archives will establish a collection of publicly disclosable UAP records as part of ongoing efforts to increase transparency.

▶ ⚠ The speaker emphasizes that over-classification has created a lack of information, fostering theories about UAPs and undermining trust in government institutions.

[1372.45s]
Jared Moskowitz, U.S. Representative

And there are regular questions that Americans have. What are UAPs? Are they real? Are they ours? How has this technology been developed? How do they get funded? Right? And now we've seen, this has gone from a long time ago where you could discredit people because it's some guy living in a Winnebago. You're able to see people now, these are pilots, these are military, these are folks with serious backgrounds. This has changed the face of this because now we have video. People will have questions. We know there are advanced technology programs. Almost 15 years ago, one of those came out of Area 51 to go after Osama bin Laden. And the only reason we know about that is because one of those helicopters was downed. Americans have questions about whistleblowers who have come forward to talk about retribution. And so I want to thank everyone for being involved today on trying to get more transparency. This has been bipartisan, bicameral.

▶ ⚠ Credibility of UAP reports is questioned by the public and Congress, but responses from the government are often evasive or refusal to provide answers.

[1439.70s]
Jared Moskowitz, U.S. Representative

And as we get into a new administration, the president-elect has talked about opportunities to declassify information on UAPs, and I hope he lives up to that promise. And with that, I yield back.

[1455.41s]
Nancy Mace, U.S. Representative

Okay. Thank you, Mr. Moskowitz. And I would now, committee staff asked me to go ahead and I will do it, to enter into the congressional record. This 12-page document that Michael Schellenberger brought today that describes the Immaculate Constellation government program. So we will do that now. Every member up here has a copy of it. The first section talks about the unacknowledged special access program called Immaculate Constellation. And the second section about USG imagery intelligence. And Representative Luna just told me if I say Immaculate Constellation, I'll be on some list. Maybe a FISA warrant, so come at me, bro, I guess. But without objection, entered in the record. All right, so next we will introduce our witnesses for today's hearing. Thank you so much for being here. Our first witness is retired Rear Admiral Tim Gallaudet, who retired from the U.S. Navy and is now the Chief Executive Officer at Ocean STL Consulting.

Navy Commander’s Testimony on UAP Secrecy

Former Navy commander Rear Admiral Gallaudet testifies before a congressional committee about his experience with unidentified aerial phenomena (UAPs) during a naval exercise off the US East Coast in 2015. He discusses how UAP information is being withheld from senior officials and members of Congress, and recommends establishing robust oversight, enacting the UAP Disclosure Act, and mandating a whole-of-government approach to addressing UAP.

[1514.44s]
Nancy Mace, U.S. Representative

Our second witness is Mr. Lou Elizondo, a former Department of Defense official. and author of a recent bestseller book about UAPs. Our third witness is Mr. Michael Schellenberger, founder of the newsletter Public, and author of a recent journalistic piece about special access programs, including one widely identified as Immaculate Constellation. I swear the staff wants me on a list. Okay, and our last witness today is Mr. Michael Gold, a former NASA official who is also a member of the NASA UAP Independent Study Team. Welcome, everyone. We are pleased to have you today. Pursuant to Committee Rule 9G, the witnesses will please stand and raise your right hands. This is where it gets real. Do you solemnly swear to affirm that the testimony that you are about to give is the truth, the whole truth, and nothing but the truth? So help you God. Let the record show that the witnesses all answered in the affirmative. We appreciate all of you being here today and look forward to your testimony.

▶ ⚠ The speaker highlights that whistleblowers have faced retribution for sharing information about UAPs, raising concerns about transparency and accountability.

[1572.68s]
Nancy Mace, U.S. Representative

Let me remind the witnesses that we have read your written statements and they will appear in full in the hearing record. You guys may be seated. Please limit your oral statements to five minutes. As a reminder, please press the button in front of you so the microphone is turned on so that everyone in the room, members included, can hear you. When you begin to speak, the light in front of you will turn green. After four minutes, the light will turn yellow. When the red light comes on, your five minutes has expired, and we would ask that you please wrap it up. So I will first recognize Rear Admiral Gallaudet to please begin your opening remarks.

[1607.28s]
Tim Gallaudet, Chief Executive Officer

Thank you, Chairwoman Mace, Chairman Grothman, Ranking Members Connolly and Garcia, and members of the committee. Thank you for this opportunity to testify today regarding Unidentified Anomalous Phenomena, or UAP. Confirmation that UAPs are real came to me in January of 2015 when I was serving as the commander of the Navy Meteorology and Oceanography Command. At the time, my personnel were participating in a pre-deployment naval exercise off the U.S. East Coast. It included the USS Theodore Roosevelt Carrier Strike Group, and this exercise was overseen by the United States Fleet Forces Command, led by a four-star admiral who at the time was also my superior officer. During this exercise, I received an email on Navy's secure network from the operations officer of U.S. Fleet Forces Command. The email was addressed to all the subordinate commanders, and the subject line read in all capital letters, URGENT SAFETY OF FLIGHT ISSUE.

▶ ⚠ Advanced technology programs, such as those originating from Area 51, have been declassified only after incidents like the downing of a helicopter, suggesting a pattern of secrecy.

▶ ⚠ A witness describes an incident in 2015 involving a classified email regarding UAPs during a naval exercise, highlighting safety concerns due to near midair collisions with unidentified objects.

▶ ⚠ The witness notes that the email, which included a video of a UAP, disappeared without explanation and was never discussed by higher-ranking officials, suggesting a lack of transparency or cover-up.

[1661.28s]
Tim Gallaudet, Chief Executive Officer

The text of the email was brief but alarming, with words to the effect, if any of you know what these are, tell me ASAP. We are having multiple near midair collisions, and if we do not resolve this soon, we are going to have to shut down the exercise. Attached to the email is what is now known as the Go Fast video, captured on the forward-looking infrared sensor of one of the Navy F-18 aircraft participating in the exercise. The now declassified video showed an unidentified object exhibiting flight and structural characteristics unlike anything in our arsenal. The implication of the email was clear. the author was asking whether any of the recipients were aware of classified technology demonstrations that could explain these objects. Because the DoD policy is to rigorously de-conflict such demonstrations with live exercises, I was confident this was not the case. The very next day, that email disappeared from my account and those of the other recipients without explanation.

▶ ⚠ A 12-page document describing the Immaculate Constellation program is entered into the congressional record, indicating ongoing efforts to address classified information publicly.

▶ ⚠ The witness references last year's hearing where it was revealed that UAP-related information is being withheld from Congress and that disinformation campaigns are targeting whistleblowers.

[1721.15s]
Tim Gallaudet, Chief Executive Officer

Moreover, the commander of Fleet Forces Command and the operations officer never discussed the subject. even during weekly meetings specifically designed to address issues affecting exercises like the one in which the Theodore Roosevelt Strike Group was participating. This lack of follow-up was very concerning to me. As the Navy's chief meteorologist at the time, I was responsible for reducing safety of flight risks. Yet it appeared to me that no one at the flag officer level was addressing the safety risk posed by UAPs. Instead, pilots were left to mitigate these threats on their own without guidance or support. I concluded that the UAP information must have been classified within a special access program managed by an intelligence agency. That is a compartmental program that even senior officials, including myself, were not read into.

▶ ⚠ The witness expresses concern over the over-classification of UAP information, which has hindered efforts to address these phenomena and eroded public trust in government institutions.

▶ ⚠ The witness advocates for greater transparency and recommends specific actions for Congress, including establishing oversight bodies and passing legislation to ensure comprehensive management of UAP-related information.

[1768.89s]
Tim Gallaudet, Chief Executive Officer

Last year's UAP hearing before this oversight committee confirmed that UAP related information is being withheld from senior officials and members of Congress. And just this week I learned from former DOD official Chris Mellon that satellite imagery of UAP from a few years ago still has not been shared with Congress. Equally concerning, last year's UAP hearing also revealed that elements of the government are engaged in a disinformation campaign to include personal attacks designed to discredit UAP whistleblowers. Having never signed a nondisclosure agreement regarding UAPs, and now as a private citizen, I have become an advocate for greater UAP transparency from the government. The continued over-classification surrounding UAPs has not only hindered our ability to effectively address these phenomena, but has also eroded trust in our institutions.

[1817.15s]
Tim Gallaudet, Chief Executive Officer

While I applaud previous bipartisan legislation passed by Congress concerning UAPs, a more comprehensive approach is needed to address the broader implication of UAP on public safety and national security, as well as the socioeconomic opportunities that open UAP research could unlock. Therefore, I recommend Congress take the following action, which I believe will receive bipartisan support. First, establish robust oversight of the Executive Branch's management of UAP information by directing key officials, beginning with the Director of the DoD's All-Domain Anomaly Resolution Office, to provide comprehensive briefings on what the government knows about UAP and does not know. Two, enact the provisions of the UAP Disclosure Act that establish a UAP Records Review Board to ensure independent oversight, transparency, and accountability in the government's handling of UAP information.

[1865.75s]
Tim Gallaudet, Chief Executive Officer

And three, strengthen the UAP Disclosure Act and future reauthorizations with provisions that mandate a whole-of-government approach to addressing UAP. In closing, I will share my personal reasons for speaking out on this topic. First, as a former science agency leader having led the National Oceanic and Atmospheric Administration, I've always sought the truth in human knowledge and thought. Now that we know UAP are interacting with humanity and these include unidentified submerged objects in the ocean, we should not turn a blind eye but instead boldly face this new reality and learn from it. Additionally, at a time when leaders and government leave much to be desired, I feel obligated to show moral leadership on this issue of UAP disclosure by validating the credibility of the courageous men and women who have come out as witnesses and whistleblowers to expose the truth. My speaking out has encouraged others to do the same and it may

[1917.65s]
Tim Gallaudet, Chief Executive Officer

It's my hope over time that a number of your constituents will want to know the truth about UAP, and this number will increase to such an extent that the congressional action I've just recommended will become inevitable. Thank you, and I look forward to your questions.

▶ ⚠ The witness asserts that UAPs are real and involve advanced technologies not developed by any government, monitoring sensitive military installations globally.

[1933.70s]
Nancy Mace, U.S. Representative

Thank you. I will now recognize Mr. Elizondo for his opening statement.

Whistleblower Allegations of Secret UAP Programs

A former government official testifies before a congressional committee on the existence and secrecy surrounding unidentified anomalous phenomena (UAP), formerly known as UFOs. The witness recounts their experiences and proposes measures to increase transparency and accountability in UAP-related matters, highlighting concerns about misallocated funds, hidden information, and whistleblower retaliation.

[1938.41s]
Luis Elizondo, Researcher, Department of Defense

Greetings, Chairwoman Mace, Chairman Grothman, ranking members Connolly and Garcia, and members of the committee. It is my honor and privilege to testify before you on the issue of unidentified anomalous phenomenon, formerly known as UFOs. On behalf of our brave men and women in uniform and across the intelligence community, as well as my fellow Americans who have awaited this day, thank you for your leadership on this important matter. Let me be clear. UAP are real. Advanced technologies not made by our government or any other government are monitoring sensitive military installations around the globe. Furthermore, the U.S. is in possession of UAP technologies, as are some of our adversaries. I believe we are in the midst of a multi-decade secretive arms race, one funded by misallocated taxpayer dollars and hidden from our elected representatives and oversight bodies. For many years, I was entrusted with protecting some of our nation's most sensitive programs.

[1993.17s]
Luis Elizondo, Researcher, Department of Defense

In my last position, I managed a special access program on behalf of the White House and the National Security Council. As such, I appreciate the need to protect certain sensitive intelligence and military information. I consider my oath to protect secrets as sacred, and I will always put the safety of the American people first. With that said, I also understand the consequences of excessive secrecy and stovepiping. Nowhere was this more apparent than in the aftermath of 9-11, which many of us remember all too well. I believe that America's greatness depends on three elements. A, a watchful Congress, B, a responsive executive branch, and C, an informed public. Over the last decade and a half, I learned that certain UAP programs were and are operating without any of these elements.

▶ ⚠ It is revealed that both the U.S. and its adversaries possess UAP technologies, indicating a secretive multi-decade arms race funded by misallocated taxpayer dollars without proper oversight.

[2040.92s]
Luis Elizondo, Researcher, Department of Defense

Although much of my government work on the UAP subject still remains classified, excessive secrecy has led to grave misdeeds against loyal civil servants, military personnel, and the public, all to hide the fact that we are not alone in the cosmos. A small cadre within our own government involved in the UAP topic has created a culture of suppression and intimidation that I've personally been victim to, along with many of my former colleagues. This includes unwarranted criminal investigations, harassment, and efforts to destroy one's credibility. Most Americans would be shocked to learn that the Pentagon's very own public affairs office openly employs a professional psychological operations officer as the singular point of contact for any UAP-related inquiries from citizens and the media. This is unacceptable.

[2090.81s]
Luis Elizondo, Researcher, Department of Defense

Many of my former colleagues and I have provided classified testimony to both the Department of Defense and the Intelligence Community Inspector General, and many of us have subsequently been targeted by this cabal with threats to our careers, our security clearances, and even our lives. This is not hyperbole, but a genuine fact, and this is wrong. To fix these problems, I propose three principal actions. First, Congress and the President should create a single point of contact responsible for a whole-of-government approach to the UAP issue. Currently the White House, CIA, NASA, the Pentagon, Department of Energy, and others play a role, but no one seems to be in charge, leading to unchecked power and corruption. Second, we need a national UAP strategy that will promote transparency and help restore the American public's trust at a time when the public's trust is at an all-time low.

▶ ⚠ The discussion highlights excessive secrecy within government UAP programs, leading to mistreatment of civil servants, military personnel, and the public through unwarranted investigations and harassment.

[2140.47s]
Luis Elizondo, Researcher, Department of Defense

This strategy should include a whole-of-government approach, including the academic and scientific communities, the private sector, and our international partners and allies. Third, Congress should create a protected environment so whistleblowers desperate to do the right thing can come forward without fear. As it currently stands, these whistleblowers suffer because of stigma, a code of silence, and concerns about retaliation. These whistleblowers should be encouraged to come forward in ways that protect them against any forms of retaliation. Policies and procedures should ensure that protection. And for those who refuse to cooperate, it is up to the members of this committee and other lawmakers to wield their subpoena power against hostile witnesses and prevent additional government funding to those UAP efforts that remain hidden from congressional oversight. In closing, we as Americans have never been afraid of a challenge.

▶ ⚠ Concern is expressed over the Pentagon's use of a psychological operations officer as the sole point of contact for UAP inquiries, suggesting manipulation or misinformation in handling public and media queries.

[2188.59s]
Luis Elizondo, Researcher, Department of Defense

In fact, we thrive on them, whether it's eradicating polio or going to the moon. We don't run from a challenge. We take it head on. To the incoming administration and Congress, I say to you, we need immediate public transparency. And this hearing is an important step on that journey. If we approach the UAP topic in the same way as Americans have met other challenges, we can restore our faith in our government institutions. Together, we can usher in a new era of accountable government and scientific discovery. I believe that we as Americans can handle the truth, and I also believe the world deserves the truth. Thank you, esteemed members of Congress, for your time today. It is profoundly appreciated by many.

▶ ⚠ The witness proposes creating a single government-wide point of contact and developing a national strategy to address UAPs transparently, aiming to restore public trust and accountability.

[2230.94s]
Nancy Mace, U.S. Representative

Thank you. I ask unanimous consent for Representatives Ogles of Tennessee and Boebert of Colorado to be waived onto the subcommittee for today's joint subcommittee hearing for the purpose of asking questions without objection so ordered. I would now like to recognize Mr. Schellenberger for his introductory remarks.

[2246.77s]
Michael Shellenberger Founder Substack | "Public" Newsletter

Chairwoman Mace, Chairman Grothman, Ranking Member Connolly, Ranking Member Garcia, members of the subcommittees, thank you for inviting my testimony. One of Congress's most important responsibilities is oversight of the executive branch in general and the military and intelligence community in particular. Unfortunately, there is a growing body of evidence that the U.S. government is not being transparent about what it knows about unidentified anomalous phenomena. and that elements within the military and the IC are in violation of their constitutional duty to notify Congress of their operations. President-elect Donald Trump and former President Barack Obama have both said that the government has information about UAPs that it has not released. There are other explanations for UAPs that they represent a new form of life or non-human life.

▶ ⚠ The testimony highlights that both former President Barack Obama and President-elect Donald Trump have acknowledged that the U.S. government possesses unreleased information regarding unidentified anomalous phenomena (UAPs).

[2299.45s]
Michael Shellenberger Founder Substack | "Public" Newsletter

Current dominant alternative theories, including those put forward by Arrow, are that UAPs are some kind of natural phenomena we don't yet understand, like ball lightning or plasma. They could also be part of some new U.S. or foreign government weapons program, such as drones, aircraft, balloons, CGI, hoaxes, or birds. Whatever UAPs are, Congress must be informed, as must the people of the United States. We have a right to know what UAPs are, no matter what they are. However, we now have existing and former U.S. government officials who have told Congress that Arrow and the Pentagon have broken the law by not revealing a significant body of information about UAPs, including military intelligence databases that have evidence of their existence as physical craft. One of those individuals is a current or former U.S. government official acting as a UAP whistleblower. This person has written a report.

▶ ⚠ A whistleblower report reveals that the executive branch has been managing UAP-related issues without congressional oversight for decades, potentially violating constitutional duties to notify Congress of such operations.

Revealing Secret Military UAP Programs

The transcript reveals a report that suggests the US government has been managing UAP (Unidentified Aerial Phenomenon) issues without congressional knowledge, oversight, or authorization for decades. The report details various UAP sightings, including orbs and disks, and describes incidents where UAPs interacted with military aircraft. It also highlights the struggle of a leading UAP researcher to obtain information from the government through FOIA requests.

[2350.37s]
Michael Shellenberger Founder Substack | "Public" Newsletter

This is the report that says the executive branch has been managing UAP NHI issues without congressional knowledge, oversight, or authorization for some time, quite possibly decades. Furthermore, these individuals have revealed the name of an active and highly secretive DOD unacknowledged special access program or USAP. The source of that document told me that the USAP is a strategic intelligence program that is part of the U.S. military family of longstanding, highly sensitive programs dealing with various aspects of the UAP problem. The new UAP whistleblower claims that the U.S. military and IC database includes videos and images taken using infrared, forward-looking infrared, full-motion video, and still photography. The report that was just shared with Congress says Immaculate Constellation serves as a central or parent USAP that consolidates observations of UAPs by both tasked and untasked collection platforms.

[2406.51s]
Michael Shellenberger Founder Substack | "Public" Newsletter

Immaculate Constellation includes high-quality imagery intelligence and measurement and signature intelligence of UAPs, the whistleblower's report adds. The sources of this intelligence are a blend of directed and incidental collection capacities, capabilities, position in low Earth orbit, the upper atmosphere, as well as military and civilian aviation altitudes and marine time environments. The report to Congress details in detail various UAPs, including spheres, orbs, disks, saucers, ovals, triangles, boomerang, arrowhead, and irregular organic. The report describes various incidents found in the human intelligence databases. One involved orbs surrounding and forcing an F-22 out of its patrol area. In another incident, the crew of a Navy aircraft carrier watched a small orange-red sphere rapidly descend from a high altitude of 100 to 200 yards directly above the flight deck of the CVN or aircraft carrier.

[2455.80s]
Michael Shellenberger Founder Substack | "Public" Newsletter

And since my reporting on this immaculate constellation last month, another source came forward who told me that they saw a roughly 13 minute long, high definition, full color video of a white orb UAP coming out of the ocean approximately 20 miles off the coast of Kuwait. It was filmed from a helicopter. Then halfway through the video, the person said the orb is joined by another orb that briefly comes into the frame from the left before rapidly moving again out of the frame. The person discovered the video on SIPR, the Secure Internet Protocol Router Network, which the DoD uses to transmit classified information. A leading UAP researcher who utilizes the Freedom of Information Act to find out what the government knows, John Greenwald, told me last year that the U.S. government had been increasingly denying his request for UAP information. He has been doing FOIA requests for 27 years and has an archive of 3 million pages.

▶ ⚠ The testimony details a highly classified Department of Defense program called "Immaculate Constellation," which consolidates intelligence on UAPs collected from various sources, including military and civilian aviation altitudes and marine environments.

[2506.50s]
Michael Shellenberger Founder Substack | "Public" Newsletter

The government has for decades denied any interest in UFOs, he told me, but the documents that he has assembled show that behind the scenes it was a completely different story. Contrary to the hopes of many advocates of transparency, the government has been restricting more information since the leak of three UAP videos in 2017. The DOD organization Arrow has been labeling many documents with a B7 exemption, which Greenwald says does not make any sense. They're stating that anything Arrow does is involved in law enforcement investigation, which allows Arrow to not release it. Greenwald says the DOD has denied the existence of a UAP and ATIP-related records on multiple occasions, only to acknowledge them after an appeal was filed. He added that the Naval Air Systems Command in March 2022 stated they found no additional UAP videos.

[2551.37s]
Michael Shellenberger Founder Substack | "Public" Newsletter

It seemed strange that they had three and only those three, but other requests had been filed by the Black Vault, that's John Greenwald's group, to seek out more places UAPs might be hiding. Then in September 2022, the Navy admitted that the UAP-related videos and photographs existed, but denied the request in full for their release, saying that the requested videos contained sensitive information that are classified and exempt from disclosure. The DOD will deny things on a Monday and then admit to it on a Friday, said Greenwald. He said the government can and does release videos that protect secret methods of capturing it. They fall back on the sensitive platform excuse a lot, he said. However, the on-screen information can be blurred and scrubbed. The metadata can be removed. I'll show you this example here. This is a presentation from the UATP task force. This is completely absurd. It's nuts, this level of censorship, of redaction on a document.

▶ ⚠ Specific incidents described in the report include UAP encounters involving an F-22 being forced out of its patrol area by orbs and a Navy aircraft carrier observing a small orange-red sphere descending to within 100 to 200 yards of its flight deck.

▶ ⚠ The Navy admitted in September 2022 that UAP-related videos and photographs exist but denied their release, citing sensitive classified information.

[2604.70s]
Michael Shellenberger Founder Substack | "Public" Newsletter

It shows the redaction of how many reports they've collected, for how many years. Two of the three potential explanations are blacked out. The Pentagon, the intelligence community is treating us like children. It's time for us to know the truth about this. I think that we can handle it. Thank you very much.

▶ ⚠ Critics argue that the government often uses excessive redaction and censorship to obscure details about UAPs, treating the public with distrust.

[2623.82s]
Nancy Mace, U.S. Representative

Thank you. I would now like to recognize Mr. Gold for five minutes.

[2628.72s]
Michael Gold Associate Administrator NASA | Space Policy and Partners

Thank you, Chairwoman Mace, Chairman Groffman, Ranking Members Connolly and Garcia, Representative Moskowitz, and distinguished members of both subcommittees. I'm grateful to all of you, as well as your intrepid staff, for the opportunity to testify. I would like to begin by discussing courage. Courage is what it takes to tackle this topic, and courage in the face of adversity is what I see in front of me, beside me, and behind me. Per my introduction, I am currently the chief growth officer at Redwire Space and have had several leadership positions at NASA. That being said, I want to be clear that I am speaking exclusively on my own behalf and not for Redwire, NASA, or any other organization. However, I am here today to speak out for science. Science requires data, which should be collected without bias or prejudice. Yet, whenever the topic of UAP arises, those who wish to explore the phenomena are often confronted with resistance and ridicule.

▶ ⚠ NASA's brand and resources could play a significant role in advancing UAP research by hosting symposia, creating AI/ML algorithms for anomaly detection, or leveraging existing data systems like ASRS.

[2683.88s]
Michael Gold Associate Administrator NASA | Space Policy and Partners

For example, members of the NASA UAP independent study team, particularly those in academia, were mocked and even threatened for simply having the temerity to engage in the study of UAP. Our best tool for unlocking the mystery of UAP is science, but we cannot conduct a proper inquiry if the stigma is so overwhelming that just daring to be part of a NASA research team elicits such a vitriolic response. Therefore, one of the most important actions that can be taken relative to exposing the truth of UAP is to combat the stigma, and this is where I believe that NASA can be eminently helpful. The NASA brand is synonymous with hope, optimism, and credibility. If you were to take a walk down the National Mall, you would immediately see the NASA logo on T-shirts, hats, and bumper stickers. Few federal agencies enjoy this kind of popularity. I've never seen anyone wearing an Office of Personal Management T-shirt, which is why NASA could play such an influential role.

▶ ⚠ A leading UAP researcher reports that the government has increasingly denied Freedom of Information Act (FOIA) requests for UAP-related information since the leak of three UAP videos in 2017, suggesting a trend toward greater secrecy.

▶ ⚠ The stigma surrounding UAPs discourages scientists and pilots from reporting sightings, hindering the collection of valuable data.

[2746.15s]
Michael Gold Associate Administrator NASA | Space Policy and Partners

Specifically, NASA could, with relatively little cost and effort, host symposia on UAP, or even just participate in existing panels examining the topic. NASA personnel stepping forward and participating in such discussions would make a powerful statement to the scientific community that UAP should be taken seriously and researched accordingly. In regard to research, NASA has vast archives, much of which may contain important UAP data. Again, for relatively little cost and effort, NASA could create an AI or ML algorithm that could search the agency's archives for anomalous phenomena. I suspect that such an effort would not only result in information that will help us to understand UAP, but could result in data that will assist in other areas of scientific inquiry, such as anomalous weather or meteorite activity. Beyond its existing archives, NASA could act as a clearinghouse for civilian and commercial UAP data.

▶ ⚠ NASA's Aviation Safety Reporting System (ASRS) is suggested as an ideal tool for collecting UAP data due to its confidential and non-punitive nature, potentially yielding hundreds of thousands of reports.

Congressional Testimony on UAP Crash Retrieval Programs

The transcript excerpt from a hearing on Unidentified Aerial Phenomena (UAP) features testimony from Mr. Elizondo and questions from Speaker 15. Mr. Elizondo discusses the lack of clear reporting processes for UAP sightings, suggesting the use of NASA's Aviation Safety Reporting System to collect data. He also shares information about advanced technologies monitoring military installations and secret UAP crash retrieval programs.

[2803.54s]
Michael Gold Associate Administrator NASA | Space Policy and Partners

During my work on the UAP independent study team, it quickly became evident that there is no clear or well-publicized process for civilian pilots to report UAP sightings. The stigma associated with UAP hampers the number of pilots that would report such phenomena, but even for those who overcome the stigma, I believe the current FAA guidance is largely unknown and poorly understood. In order to effectively collect UAP data, the independent study team recommended the use of NASA's Aviation Safety Reporting System, or ASRS. This system, which is administered by NASA and funded by the FAA, provides a confidential means for the reporting of safety violations in a voluntary and non-punitive manner. Over 47 years, the ASRS has collected nearly 2 million reports. ASRS is the perfect tool to collect UAP data, which could then be collated by NASA and shared with the public at large. Leveraging ASRS could create a treasure trove of UAP data, potentially hundreds of thousands of reports.

[2863.48s]
Michael Gold Associate Administrator NASA | Space Policy and Partners

supporting this hearing's goal of exposing the truth. And I'm grateful to our two co-chairs and other members who have already incorporated this idea into proposed legislation. At this hearing, and as others have demonstrated, the UAP issue is justifiably dominated by national security and defense. However, I would urge the subcommittees to keep in mind the numerous ways that NASA and the FAA, as well as commercial activities in the air, in space, and in the water, can generate a massive amount of invaluable data on anomalous phenomena. I cannot help but be excited by the potential for such an endeavor since scientific discovery is driven by anomalies. It's the existence and study of anomalies that led to the theory of relativity, quantum mechanics, and nearly all of humanity's scientific breakthroughs. This is why the study of UAPs should be embraced since whatever is occurring, the chance to garner new knowledge should never be ignored.

▶ ⚠ The witness emphasizes the importance of collaboration between defense agencies, NASA, FAA, and commercial entities to gather data on anomalous phenomena, highlighting their potential for scientific discovery.

[2919.91s]
Michael Gold Associate Administrator NASA | Space Policy and Partners

We must be thorough in collecting information, fearless in making conclusions, and open to following the data no matter how mundane or extraordinary the results may be. I began this testimony by praising the Joint Subcommittee members for their courage, and I will end by echoing that sentiment. As the saying goes, the truth is out there. We just need to be bold enough and brave enough to face it. Thank you.

▶ ⚠ The speaker underscores that scientific breakthroughs often stem from anomalies, advocating for embracing UAP study as a means to unlock new knowledge.

[2946.90s]
Nancy Mace, U.S. Representative

Thank you. Thank you all. I will now recognize myself for five minutes of questioning. I have a lot of questions and I have a lot of witnesses. So I would just ask if it's yes or no to please just tell me yes or no. If it requires more than that, be very succinct because I would like to go down the line and ask as many questions as possible. So for the Admiral this morning first, former DoD official Chris Mellon reached out to you about satellite imagery from 2017 that depicts a UAP. What were the dates in 2017 when this occurred?

▶ ⚠ The witness stresses the necessity of thorough information collection and openness to all data outcomes, regardless of their nature.

[2977.54s]
Tim Gallaudet, Chief Executive Officer

I can't share with you the details, ma'am, but I can do it in a closed setting, and I can also tell you the agency that wrote a report on it.

[2983.91s]
Nancy Mace, U.S. Representative

Okay, so who has the imagery?

[2985.75s]
Tim Gallaudet, Chief Executive Officer

I can tell you that in a closed setting.

[2988.05s]
Nancy Mace, U.S. Representative

Can you describe what was depicted in the satellite imagery? Just a description.

[2991.74s]
Tim Gallaudet, Chief Executive Officer

It was a UAP, ma'am.

[2994.22s]
Nancy Mace, U.S. Representative

That's it? No other description?

[2996.24s]
Tim Gallaudet, Chief Executive Officer

The term that the analysts used, they called it the button. It was a disc-shaped object.

[3003.78s]
Nancy Mace, U.S. Representative

Okay. Where was it?

[3005.60s]
Tim Gallaudet, Chief Executive Officer

I can't tell you that, ma'am.

[3007.05s]
Nancy Mace, U.S. Representative

Okay. All right. Mr. Elizondo, you state in your testimony that, quote, advanced technologies not by our government or any other government are monitoring sensitive military installations around the globe, end quote. If these technologies are not made by any government, who's making them? Private companies or are you implying they are crafted by a non-human intelligence?

[3030.58s]
Luis Elizondo, Researcher, Department of Defense

Well, ma'am, that's precisely why we're here. The problem is that, temporally speaking, over decades, not just the last 10 years, before – to put this in perspective, when we – Are these private companies you're implying, or is this non-human intelligence? It may be both. Okay. When it comes to Blue Force technologies, I would not be able to discuss them. Okay.

▶ ⚠ Satellite imagery from 2017 depicts a disc-shaped UAP referred to as "the button," though specific details remain classified.

[3047.61s]
Nancy Mace, U.S. Representative

Are you read into secret UAP crash retrieval programs?

[3051.42s]
Luis Elizondo, Researcher, Department of Defense

We would have to have a conversation in a closed session, ma'am. I signed documentation three years ago that restricts my ability to discuss specifically crash retrievals. I submitted for my book through the DOPSRA process, which took a year for it to be reviewed. And what is in the book is what I was told I'm allowed to talk about.

▶ ⚠ Government employees injured by UAPs have received compensation, suggesting direct physical interactions with these phenomena.

[3069.05s]
Nancy Mace, U.S. Representative

Has the government conducted secret UAP crash retrieval programs, yes or no?

[3072.75s]
Luis Elizondo, Researcher, Department of Defense

Yes.

[3073.74s]
Nancy Mace, U.S. Representative

Okay. Were they designed to identify and reverse engineer alien craft, yes or no?

[3077.46s]
Tim Gallaudet, Chief Executive Officer

Yes.

[3078.40s]
Nancy Mace, U.S. Representative

Does the U.S. government have any reverse – okay, we already asked that question about retrieval programs. Do any U.S. contractors have the same?

[3087.39s]
Luis Elizondo, Researcher, Department of Defense

I would prefer to address it in a closed session, ma'am.

[3089.72s]
Nancy Mace, U.S. Representative

Okay. In your book, you mention government employees who've been injured by UAPs placed on leave and receiving government compensation for their injuries. Is that correct?

[3097.68s]
Luis Elizondo, Researcher, Department of Defense

That is correct.

[3098.48s]
Nancy Mace, U.S. Representative

How can the government deny we have recovered craft if they're paying people because they've been injured by recovered craft?

[3105.59s]
Luis Elizondo, Researcher, Department of Defense

Ma'am, that's a great question. That's why I think we're here again, because I've seen the documentation by the U.S. government for several of these individuals who have sustained injuries as a result of a UAP incident.

[3117.53s]
Nancy Mace, U.S. Representative

It's a crazy idea, right? The hypocrisy and the logic. Okay, Mr. Schellenberger, I'm going to say it again to be very clear. Immaculate Constellation. What's its mission and how are they funded?

▶ ⚠ The witness describes Immaculate Constellation as an unacknowledged special access program focused on documenting UAPs, with sources identified as current or former government employees.

[3131.19s]
Michael Shellenberger Founder Substack | "Public" Newsletter

Its mission is to, as I stated, its mission is to, it's an unacknowledged special access program. Its mission is to document UAPs.

[3142.93s]
Nancy Mace, U.S. Representative

Okay, and do you, for your story and your report, do you have more than one credible source?

[3147.52s]
Michael Shellenberger Founder Substack | "Public" Newsletter

I do.

[3147.82s]
Nancy Mace, U.S. Representative

Sourcing, okay. I do. And then why do you believe your sources to be credible? How do you judge the veracity of the documentation you've been provided about this program?

[3155.96s]
Michael Shellenberger Founder Substack | "Public" Newsletter

I checked the sources, and they are who they say they are. They are current or former government officials. I wanted to also add that I did not specify that they were Defense Department employees. I didn't specify the agency nor the gender.

[3171.14s]
Nancy Mace, U.S. Representative

Would they have included non-government employees, people that aren't employed by the government?

[3175.91s]
Michael Shellenberger Founder Substack | "Public" Newsletter

I'm comfortable saying that these are government or previously government employees.

[3182.03s]
Nancy Mace, U.S. Representative

Any of them currently employed by a private contractor or private contractors?

[3185.58s]
Michael Shellenberger Founder Substack | "Public" Newsletter

I'd rather not say.

[3186.72s]
?

Okay.

[3188.00s]
Nancy Mace, U.S. Representative

What's the key takeaway? Just a few seconds about the Immaculate Constellation document you provided us today.

[3194.35s]
Michael Shellenberger Founder Substack | "Public" Newsletter

I think that what the American people need to know is that the U.S. military and intelligence community are sitting on a huge amount of visual and other information, still photos, video photos, other sensor information, and they have for a very long time. And it's not those fuzzy images. photos and videos that we've been given. There's very clear... High res? High resolution.

▶ ⚠ The witness claims that the U.S. military and intelligence community possess a substantial amount of high-resolution visual evidence on UAPs, contrary to commonly perceived blurry images.

[3214.66s]
Nancy Mace, U.S. Representative

How many visuals, graphics, videos, photos?

[3218.63s]
Michael Shellenberger Founder Substack | "Public" Newsletter

I mean, I've been told hundreds, you know, maybe thousands. I mean, I also wanted to say, because there was some conversation around concern around the revealing of these materials, revealing the source collections, but some of these are shot from helicopters using normal videos of oceans. I just think that's absurd that somehow you're going to be revealing some secret U.S. technology by revealing that you've photographed orbs off the coast of Kuwait.

[3245.64s]
Nancy Mace, U.S. Representative

Okay, thank you. I have eight seconds. Mr. Gold, did NASA, did the NASA independent study team get briefed on what you call OSAP? Very quickly.

Secrecy, NDAs, and UAP Witness Testimony

The transcript excerpts reveal a congressional hearing on unidentified aerial phenomena (UAP) where witnesses discuss government secrecy, document signing, and potential disinformation campaigns. Dr. Elizondo, a former counterintelligence special agent with a legitimate background, shares his experience signing a classified document that restricted his ability to discuss certain UAP-related topics. The conversation also touches on specific incidents, such as the Omaha event, and the reluctance of government agencies to release information on UAP sightings.

[3252.64s]
Michael Gold Associate Administrator NASA | Space Policy and Partners

I flagged the Advanced Aerospace Weapons System Assocation Program to our chair and our DFO. We did not get briefed, but I believe it is definitely worth looking into. That was probably the largest UAP review effort ever, and I think produced a lot of interesting data, including revealing Nimitz. I don't know if my fellow witness, Lou, might want to, he did Yeoman's work on it, might want to comment.

[3274.42s]
Nancy Mace, U.S. Representative

Okay.

[3275.67s]
Nancy Mace, U.S. Representative

All right, I'm gonna turn to Mr. Moskowitz, who will be recognized for five minutes of questioning.

▶ ⚠ It is noted that NASA's independent study team was not briefed on OSAP, though it is considered one of the largest UAP review efforts with significant findings, including data related to Nimitz.

[3281.10s]
Jared Moskowitz, U.S. Representative

Thank you, Madam Chairwoman. So Mr. Gold, you gave a whole diatribe for a couple of minutes about UAPs, science, data collection, stigma. A lot of non-believers in all of this would just ask a very simple question, why? Why is it so hard, right? Like why are people, anytime they ask, Why are they always thwarted? Why are they always judged? Why is they always have misinformation spread? Why is there always retribution? Why is it always met with an ear? What's the why? If it doesn't exist, why is it such a problem?

[3318.82s]
Michael Gold Associate Administrator NASA | Space Policy and Partners

I think if you go through the history of science, Representative, it is always difficult for breakthroughs and new information, regardless of whether it's UAP or any other kind of discovery. In science, we're supposed to be open, but when you break with the orthodoxy of what's believed, whether it's Galileo saying that the Earth doesn't rotate or the Earth rotates around the sun or the sun doesn't rotate around the Earth, it's always challenging for new beliefs. And the more extraordinary those discoveries, the more extraordinary those new beliefs, it's very difficult. So I think this is natural. There's natural conservatism when it comes to science, but this issue in particular has been very difficult where, again... even to attempt to study it becomes problematic. But every hearing like this, every news report, every video, documentaries, I was privileged to be a part of something Dan Fair is putting together.

▶ ⚠ A committee member questions why there is persistent resistance and misinformation surrounding UAPs, drawing parallels to historical scientific breakthroughs facing opposition due to challenging established beliefs.

[3374.11s]
Michael Gold Associate Administrator NASA | Space Policy and Partners

I think many of us have interviewed for it, documentary over 30 different government officials. Every brick in the wall will help get us closer to getting to the truth.

▶ ⚠ The witness highlights ongoing efforts to compile evidence through a documentary featuring interviews with over 30 government officials, emphasizing the gradual accumulation of information toward uncovering the truth about UAPs.

[3383.68s]
Jared Moskowitz, U.S. Representative

I appreciate that. Mr. Elizondo, did I have that correct? Sir. I'm a recovering lawyer, so I'm going to put my hat on for a second. You said you signed a document. Love that. Who gave that to you?

[3395.73s]
Luis Elizondo, Researcher, Department of Defense

The U.S. government, sir.

[3397.09s]
Jared Moskowitz, U.S. Representative

Okay. You have a copy of it?

[3398.91s]
Luis Elizondo, Researcher, Department of Defense

It is stored in the SCIF right now. I do not have possession of it. The U.S. government does.

[3403.28s]
Jared Moskowitz, U.S. Representative

What department of the U.S. government gave you this document?

[3405.68s]
Luis Elizondo, Researcher, Department of Defense

I will say the Department of Defense. Unfortunately, I can't say in this forum much more than that.

[3409.49s]
Jared Moskowitz, U.S. Representative

You specifically said the document said you can't talk about crash retrieval. Well, you know, you can't talk about Fight Club if there's no Fight Club. Correct. Okay, I'm just making an observation. Yes, sir. So that document that you signed that you said exists specifically said you can't talk about crash retrieval.

▶ ⚠ The witness confirms that a document signed under U.S. government authority restricted discussion of crash retrievals, emphasizing limitations on public discourse about such topics.

[3430.98s]
Luis Elizondo, Researcher, Department of Defense

Correct, sir. It was a limitation on what I, because already I'd been speaking publicly about the topic. And so the document said you can continue saying X, Y, Z, but you cannot discuss the topic.

[3440.82s]
Jared Moskowitz, U.S. Representative

Give me the atmosphere of signing this document. You're in a room by yourself?

[3444.93s]
Luis Elizondo, Researcher, Department of Defense

I'm in a skiff with a security officer, sir.

[3447.05s]
Jared Moskowitz, U.S. Representative

Just one-on-one? Anybody else?

[3449.31s]
Luis Elizondo, Researcher, Department of Defense

There may have been an assistant as well. It was in a skiff within a Department of Defense facility.

[3455.06s]
Jared Moskowitz, U.S. Representative

Give me your background real quick.

[3456.69s]
Luis Elizondo, Researcher, Department of Defense

My background is I went to school to study microbiology and immunology, entered into the U.S. Army, and after a very short stint in military intelligence, I became a counterintelligence special agent. As a civilian, later on I became a special agent in charge, running investigations in counterterrorism and counterespionage primarily, with some experience in counterinsurgency and counternarcotics. And then in 2009 timeframe, When I came back to the Pentagon after a tour with the Director of National Intelligence, I quickly became part of a program that was originally called OSAP that evolved into the program now called ATIP, which is where those videos that we now see, the GoFast, the Gimbal, the FLIR, that was part of our effort, sir.

▶ ⚠ The witness describes their background in counterintelligence and special operations, including involvement with the Advanced Aerospace Threat Identification Program (ATIP), which produced declassified UAP-related videos.

[3501.92s]
Jared Moskowitz, U.S. Representative

Right. So you're not some... Conspiracy theorist. You actually have a legitimate background.

[3506.84s]
Luis Elizondo, Researcher, Department of Defense

Well, sir, I'm certainly not a conspiracy theorist. I'm fact-based, just say fact.

[3511.17s]
Jared Moskowitz, U.S. Representative

So when you're in this room, I want to paint the picture of everybody. You're in this room, you're by yourself, you're in a skiff, you're handed a document. How long is the document?

[3517.22s]
Luis Elizondo, Researcher, Department of Defense

It's about a page front and back. So basically you have some things they call trigraphs, which I cannot, again, talk to.

[3523.65s]
Jared Moskowitz, U.S. Representative

How long were you given to sign the document?

[3526.57s]
Luis Elizondo, Researcher, Department of Defense

As long as I needed, sir.

[3527.53s]
Jared Moskowitz, U.S. Representative

And what if you didn't sign it?

[3529.40s]
Luis Elizondo, Researcher, Department of Defense

Well, I suspect there would be repercussions. I wouldn't have access to certain information.

[3534.01s]
Jared Moskowitz, U.S. Representative

Were you allowed to ask a lawyer or weren't allowed to ask for a lawyer to review the document?

[3540.56s]
Luis Elizondo, Researcher, Department of Defense

It wasn't an option, but they probably wouldn't have allowed me to because the document itself is pretty explicit about you have to be – wait, you're putting me in an interest. Let me try to thread the needle here. There are certain documents that we have in the U.S. government that allow people to have access to certain programs. whether it's a special, and I'm going to be very generic here, whether it's a special access program or a controlled access program, SAP, CAP, whatnot.

[3563.09s]
Jared Moskowitz, U.S. Representative

How many people have to sign that document?

[3564.93s]
Luis Elizondo, Researcher, Department of Defense

It depends how many people are going to get access to the information, sir.

[3568.09s]
Jared Moskowitz, U.S. Representative

Okay. Last question. Doctor, real quick, can you tell us about the Omaha incident in greater detail? I've read your background, right? Some people would label you as a member of the deep state since you worked in government for a long period of time. But can you tell us more about that incident? You've written a lot about that.

[3586.86s]
Tim Gallaudet, Chief Executive Officer

I wrote a lot about incidents like it, Congressman, but that specific incident involved the USS Omaha, the Tor combat ship of the U.S. Navy operating off Southern California. I don't remember the exact date. It was within the last decade. And what the watchstanders on the bridge observed was a UAP, again, something that was aloft but had no observable exhaust or control surfaces. So it was something that couldn't be explained, and then they saw it enter the water from the atmosphere and going through the air-sea interface, and so thus exhibiting transmedium travel. Thank you. I yield back.

▶ ⚠ The witness details an incident involving the USS Omaha, where naval personnel observed a UAP exhibiting transmedium travel—entering water from the atmosphere—a phenomenon that could not be explained by conventional means.

[3624.99s]
Nancy Mace, U.S. Representative

Thank you. I'll now recognize Mr. Grothman for five minutes of questioning.

[3628.02s]
Glenn Grothman, U.S. Representative

Yeah, we'll start with Mr. Gallaudet. During a previous UAP hearing, Navy Commander David Fravor discussed the TikTok object engaged in 2004. You're familiar with the incident, the TikTok incident? Yes, sir. That's almost 20 years ago, right? Yes, sir. It's been said there are more videos, documents, and reports related to this incident. Do you believe the information regarding the TikTok incident should be available to all members of Congress? And in your expertise... What reason would the Department of Defense possibly have for not releasing information that's over 20 years old?

[3666.02s]
Tim Gallaudet, Chief Executive Officer

Thank you, Congressman. I don't think there's any good reason to withhold information and important data, especially of national security concern from Congress. What would they say? I will speculate, sir, that they don't want to share that kind of information because it reveals weaknesses in our ability to monitor and protect our airspace.

▶ ⚠ Withholding information on UAPs is problematic as it hides weaknesses in monitoring and protecting U.S. airspace, according to the witness.

[3686.00s]
Glenn Grothman, U.S. Representative

Okay. In your written testimony, you claim last year's UAP hearing before this oversight committee confirmed that UAP-related information is, well, it's not only being withheld, but that elements of the government are engaging in a disinformation campaign to include personal attacks designed to discredit UAP whistleblowers. Could you elaborate on that statement a little?

Unseen Aerial Phenomena Explored

A former Pentagon official shares his experiences with the Department of Defense's All-Domain Anomaly Resolution Office and discusses the frequent reporting of UAP sightings over military installations. He also touches on the existence of a highly classified program dedicated to recovering and reverse-engineering UAP technologies, citing unnamed government whistleblowers as sources. The conversation delves into the frustration and enigma surrounding these unidentified aerial phenomena, with some officials expressing concerns about national security and potential vulnerabilities in defense systems.

[3711.42s]
Tim Gallaudet, Chief Executive Officer

Yes, sir. Earlier this year, I met with the DOD's All-Domain Anomaly Resolution Office, and what I thought would be a 90-minute meeting just to meet with leadership turned out to be an hours-long influence operation on me, where they attempted to convince me of the validity of the very flawed and error-ridden historical records report. In addition, they They tried to have me question very valid UAP reports like the Tic Tac incident. And even coming to stating possibly that the Tic Tac was American technology. And then, of course, if you ask David Fravor or Alex Dietrich, the two witnesses, they were convinced it was otherwise. And they also cast discredit on various UAP whistleblowers and witnesses to... A question there, validity and credibility as witnesses.

▶ ⚠ The government may be engaging in a disinformation campaign to discredit UAP whistleblowers by promoting flawed historical records and undermining valid reports like the Tic Tac incident.

[3769.06s]
Glenn Grothman, U.S. Representative

Okay. We'll go to Mr. Elizondo. Hope I got that right or not. You're familiar with the recent drone incursion over Langley Air Force Base. Yes, sir. The owners of these drones remain unclear. The U.S. military has not been able to give us in Congress an answer. Given your experience with the Department of Defense and the intelligence community, how frequently are UAP sightings over military installations reported? And secondly, I suppose hypothetically you could have incursions over just, say, regular airports. Is it obvious these incursions are more likely over military facilities than just a random airport out there?

[3811.41s]
Luis Elizondo, Researcher, Department of Defense

Yes, sir. There's definitely enough data to suggest that there is certainly some sort of relationship between sensitive U.S. military installations, also some of our nuclear equities, and also some of our Department of Energy sites. There is a long historical record that some of your colleagues may have, documentation that demonstrates this. This is not a new trend. This has been going on for decades, and that information has been obfuscated. unfortunately, from folks like you in this committee. And I think that's problematic because ultimately, at the end of the day, we have a significant situation here. We have something that can enter into U.S. airspace completely with no attribution. And how long has this been going on? Sir, decades. And there's information that will hopefully be entered into the record.

▶ ⚠ UAP sightings are more frequent over sensitive military installations and Department of Energy sites, indicating a pattern that has been ongoing for decades but has been obscured from Congress.

[3857.85s]
Glenn Grothman, U.S. Representative

Can you think of any possible reason why they can't release any information they have on something, say, 15 or 20 years old?

[3863.59s]
Luis Elizondo, Researcher, Department of Defense

Sir, if I could echo my colleague here, Admiral Gallaudet, I think one of the big issues that we have in the intelligence community, Department of Defense, is we don't want to broadcast any potential vulnerabilities or weaknesses in our national defense systems or on intelligence collection platforms. Therefore, when you have a conversation where you address a problem for which there is no solution, it makes that a very uncomfortable conversation to have.

[3887.24s]
Glenn Grothman, U.S. Representative

Okay, we'll switch to Mr. Schellenberger. The primary reason you're here today is because you published an article on the news publication that you own called Public, right? alleging that a new unnamed government whistleblower has come forward asserting that a highly classified program exists dedicated to recovery and reverse engineering of UAP technologies. What can you give us what specific evidence you have or that your source provided you to substantiate the claims about the existence of the Immaculate Constellation program?

▶ ⚠ The reluctance to release information on UAPs may stem from concerns about revealing vulnerabilities in national defense systems or intelligence collection platforms.

[3921.55s]
Michael Shellenberger Founder Substack | "Public" Newsletter

Well, you have the report in front of you now, so you can see it for yourself. But I checked the report, and I did not find it based on existing cases. It was new cases for me. At least I hadn't found anybody. So that answered for me that it was not obviously circular reporting, which is one of the big concerns in this space. I also had the name of the program confirmed by more than one additional source. So, yeah, and then, of course, I checked to make sure that the source was who they claimed to be. Okay. I should also say that when I said before it was this database, it is a much broader program. That also includes human intelligence and then, as you mentioned, the retrieval. Any knowledge of what country these things originated in? No.

▶ ⚠ The witness states that multiple credible sources have confirmed the existence of a UAP retrieval program.

[3969.26s]
Glenn Grothman, U.S. Representative

No, I have no idea.

[3970.06s]
Tim Burchett U.S. Representative

Okay. Okay.

[3971.66s]
Nancy Mace, U.S. Representative

Okay, I will now recognize Mr. Burchett for five minutes of questions.

[3975.37s]
Tim Burchett U.S. Representative

Thank you, Chair and Lady. I request your name and consent to enter into the record documents provided to us regarding legacy UAP programs and psychological operations. Lou Elizondo.

▶ ⚠ A committee member expresses concern over the lack of transparency from intelligence agencies.

[3986.48s]
Nancy Mace, U.S. Representative

So ordered.

[3987.32s]
Tim Burchett U.S. Representative

I also want to thank my buddy Jeremy Corbell for writing these documents and access to some whistleblowers. Mr. Elizondo, what is your last position with the federal government?

[3999.37s]
Luis Elizondo, Researcher, Department of Defense

Sir, I was the director of national program special management staff managing a White House special access program on behalf of the National Security Council.

[4008.56s]
Tim Burchett U.S. Representative

How would you characterize UAPs?

[4012.41s]
Luis Elizondo, Researcher, Department of Defense

An enigma, sir, and a frustration. We're talking about technologies that can outperform anything we have in our inventory. And if this was an adversarial technology, this would be an intelligence failure eclipsing that of 9-11 by an order of magnitude.

[4028.06s]
Tim Burchett U.S. Representative

Are there classified Department of Defense materials related to UAPs that you believe could be safely disclosed to the public without compromising national security?

[4037.29s]
Luis Elizondo, Researcher, Department of Defense

Yes, sir, I do. I would never ever try to endorse providing some sort of information that could compromise what we call a blue force technology or capability. But I do believe there's a lot of information regarding this topic, and I've been very vocal about it, that should be shared not only with the public, but most importantly, with members of Congress.

[4054.52s]
Tim Burchett U.S. Representative

Are you familiar with my friend David Grush?

[4056.80s]
Luis Elizondo, Researcher, Department of Defense

Absolutely, sir. I had the privilege and honor of working with him myself several years ago at U.S. Space Force.

[4062.89s]
Tim Burchett U.S. Representative

Last year, as you know, he testified that the U.S. has run a multi-decade UAP crash retrieval and reverse engineering program. Would you agree with that? Yes, sir. Are there UAP programs operating without proper congressional oversight? 100 percent. What are they? Unfortunately, sir, I would have to have that conversation in a closed session. I know you said that, and a lot of people are frustrated with those kind of answers, but we're asking those kind of questions so you all know what the heck we're up against. You also mentioned in your opening statement that the Pentagon's Public Affairs Office employs the Psychological Operations Officers as the singular point of contact for UAP-related inquiries. Why the heck would they do that?

▶ ⚠ The discussion highlights the limitations of current radar systems in tracking anomalous aerial objects.

[4103.47s]
Luis Elizondo, Researcher, Department of Defense

Sir, that's a great question. I would ask the Pentagon. There's a long history here of that individual providing misleading and false information to the public. through various news outlets and media outlets in order to discredit this topic. I've personally been victim to it. We have the documentation to substantiate where this information has been absolutely inaccurate that has been provided time and time again. And it turns out that that individual was also working with former leadership of Arrow at the time as well.

[4130.00s]
Tim Burchett U.S. Representative

And we punish them by giving them multi-million dollars more than they ask for every year. Admiral Gallaudet, you mentioned in your opening statement on An email you received from the operations officer of the Fleet Forces Command regarding unknown objects almost colliding with U.S. military planes. Did anyone respond with knowledge of what the objects were? I received no response, sir. Did the exercise get canceled? The exercise did not get canceled. Why do you think the commander of Fleet Forces Operations Officer never discussed the incident again?

[4160.80s]
Tim Gallaudet, Chief Executive Officer

Sir, I'm speculating because I didn't have an exchange with him, but I believed it to be part of a special access program, the information and the video, which we have known now it was. And he realized he couldn't share that openly with the recipients of the email, and therefore the email was pulled from everybody's account.

[4178.36s]
Tim Burchett U.S. Representative

Again, tell us what happened to the email from the commander of Fleet Forces.

Unexplained Phenomena and Information Operations

A former U.S. government official shares his experiences with unidentified aerial phenomena (UAPs), describing instances where objects exhibited characteristics unlike known technology. The conversation also delves into the existence of a federal agency, All Domain Anomaly Resolution Office (AERO), which conducts information operations about UAPs.

[4182.90s]
Tim Gallaudet, Chief Executive Officer

The day after I received it and all the other recipients received it, which were all the subordinate commanders of U.S. Fleet Forces, so one- and two-star admirals, including strike group commanders. The email was wiped or deleted from our accounts, and then no one talked about it.

▶ ⚠ An email regarding UAPs was sent to subordinate commanders and later deleted, indicating a lack of transparency in discussing such incidents.

[4197.20s]
Tim Burchett U.S. Representative

All right. Have you specifically had any experience with submersible objects?

[4203.85s]
Tim Gallaudet, Chief Executive Officer

Sir, I have no personal experience, but I've had witnesses on submarines come to me and say they've seen on sonar data. Correct. How would you characterize those, and how do they move? The one instance that was revealed to me was in the 80s on a nuclear-powered submarine, a ballistic missile submarine, that the object exhibited the characteristics of a Russian torpedo in terms of its speed of movement and closing rate with a submarine, and then it slowed and followed the submarine slowly in its wake. for a period of minutes and then rapidly exited the scene. And nothing that we know of in technology-wise could replicate that.

[4249.33s]
Tim Burchett U.S. Representative

And the speed of these objects was faster than anything that we have or anybody else has that would be manned. Is that correct?

[4257.38s]
Tim Gallaudet, Chief Executive Officer

It was on the order of a torpedo. Yes, sir. Yes, sir, but as it exited.

[4262.16s]
Tim Burchett U.S. Representative

I don't exactly know how fast a torpedo is, but I expect it does better than my old outboard Scott Atwater, so I'll take that as a yes. Yes, sir. Have you experienced any experience with the All Domain Anomaly Resolution Office, AERO?

▶ ⚠ A witness described an instance where a submersible object exhibited characteristics similar to a Russian torpedo but could not be explained by known technology.

[4277.96s]
Tim Gallaudet, Chief Executive Officer

Yes, Congressman. As I mentioned previously, I have met with them.

[4282.16s]
Tim Burchett U.S. Representative

Okay. You heard Mr. Alexander describe psychological operations for those contacting the Department of Defense about UAPs. You mentioned a similar influence operation by AERO. Why are federal agencies invested in running information operations about UAPs if they do not exist? Yes, sir.

[4301.92s]
Tim Gallaudet, Chief Executive Officer

But I'll make a statement on Arrow's behalf. They have new leadership. The office has reached out to me to meet again, and I take that as a good faith effort, and we'll see where that goes.

[4312.43s]
Tim Burchett U.S. Representative

Thank you, Chairlady. I've run over.

[4313.87s]
Nancy Mace, U.S. Representative

Thank you. Thank you, Mr. Tennessee. I would now like to recognize Mr. Higgins. You're the king of Tennessee. Mr. Higgins, you're recognized for five minutes of questions.

[4324.77s]
Clay Higgins, U.S. Representative

Thank you, Madam Chair. Mr. Elizondo, Mr. Schellenberger notes in the report that we've been given for this hearing, I believe, Mr. Schellenberger, let me shift, you are the author of this report? I'm sorry, sir, I am not the author. Mr. Schellenberger, were you the author of this report? No, I was not. Do you know the author? I do. You do. And how would you estimate that? That madam or gentleman, the author.

▶ ⚠ The witness mentioned meeting with the All Domain Anomaly Resolution Office (AERO) and expressed hope for future collaboration, suggesting ongoing federal interest in UAPs.

[4356.69s]
Michael Shellenberger Founder Substack | "Public" Newsletter

The person is a current or former U.S. government employee.

[4360.91s]
Clay Higgins, U.S. Representative

And it states here that this is the public version of the author's report. Yes. So where might one find the non-public version of the author's report?

[4374.21s]
Michael Shellenberger Founder Substack | "Public" Newsletter

I don't know the answer to that.

[4375.51s]
Clay Higgins, U.S. Representative

Would that be with the Department of Defense?

[4377.83s]
Michael Shellenberger Founder Substack | "Public" Newsletter

I don't know.

[4381.20s]
Clay Higgins, U.S. Representative

But you do know the author?

[4382.82s]
Michael Shellenberger Founder Substack | "Public" Newsletter

I do.

[4383.52s]
Clay Higgins, U.S. Representative

Do you know what the author's sources were?

[4386.03s]
Michael Shellenberger Founder Substack | "Public" Newsletter

The author's sources are described in the report, these databases, the Immaculate Consolation.

[4394.09s]
Clay Higgins, U.S. Representative

But you expressed some confidence in the sources earlier in testimony. You expressed confidence. So do you know those sources?

[4403.46s]
Michael Shellenberger Founder Substack | "Public" Newsletter

I do.

[4404.26s]
Clay Higgins, U.S. Representative

Are they within the Department of Defense?

[4406.26s]
Michael Shellenberger Founder Substack | "Public" Newsletter

I can't say.

[4406.86s]
Clay Higgins, U.S. Representative

You can't say or you won't say?

[4409.13s]
Michael Shellenberger Founder Substack | "Public" Newsletter

I won't say.

[4409.75s]
Clay Higgins, U.S. Representative

Okay, why not?

[4411.51s]
Michael Shellenberger Founder Substack | "Public" Newsletter

Because I protect my sources and I think the region... But you're not naming them.

▶ ⚠ Concern was raised over federal agencies conducting psychological operations related to UAPs, implying potential efforts to influence public perception or control information.

[4415.45s]
Clay Higgins, U.S. Representative

It's a big department. Many of us on my side of the aisle would say it's far too big. So you're talking about the Department of Defense, sources from within the Department of Defense?

[4426.84s]
Michael Shellenberger Founder Substack | "Public" Newsletter

I'm not willing to reduce the potential universe of where my sources might be.

[4432.97s]
Clay Higgins, U.S. Representative

Okay, moving on. In this report, Mr. Elizondo, for reference, several types of... Allegedly alien craft or possibly alien craft or unknown aerial phenomena, what we used to call UFOs, are described. Spheres and orbs, disks and saucers, oval or tic-tac, triangular shape. boomerang and arrowhead, and irregular or organic. Mr. Elizondo, does that summarize to you the types of craft that we're discussing today?

▶ ⚠ The author of a UAP report is identified as a current or former government employee, but their identity and sources remain undisclosed, highlighting the classified nature of such investigations.

▶ ⚠ The discussion describes various types of UAPs, including spheres, orbs, disks, saucers, ovals, triangles, boomerangs, arrowheads, and irregular or organic shapes.

[4470.09s]
Luis Elizondo, Researcher, Department of Defense

Sir, that is a general morphology, historically speaking, of many UAPs.

▶ ⚠ Some UAP encounters are associated with biological effects such as anxiety, insomnia, physical sensations, and unexplained smells, while others do not report such effects.

[4473.77s]
Clay Higgins, U.S. Representative

Okay, so those descriptions, a very different craft, is it your assessment that they would come of different origins?

[4486.45s]
Luis Elizondo, Researcher, Department of Defense

It's possible, but it also could be a matter of utility. And let me just say for the record, I never read the report or the article that Mr. Schellenberger put out.

[4495.85s]
Clay Higgins, U.S. Representative

That's a good point. We're just referencing it for descriptive purposes for the American people. Mr. Schellenberger, in this report, it's striking to me that regarding the descriptions of of experiences with these various craft. Several of them include biological effects and several do not. Are you familiar with what I'm talking about? Yes. Okay, so spheres and orbs, triangular craft, and irregular or organic craft include some descriptions of biological effects, including feelings of unease, electronic device malfunctions, long-term psychological effects such as anxiety or insomnia have been noted, feeling of being watched, a shared awareness with the triangle craft, and under the irregular and organic craft, biological effects include physical sensations of warmth or cold and unexplained smells and psychological distress. So these are very specific descriptions of the reactions of human beings, which allegedly have been noted from a study here, a report.

▶ ⚠ The database referenced in the discussion includes a large amount of data collected over many decades, encompassing images, videos, human intelligence reports, and raw data from individuals' experiences.

[4589.99s]
Clay Higgins, U.S. Representative

All of those experiences would have been described by the sources that the author used.

▶ ⚠ It is mentioned that the UAP program was managed by the Department of Defense but held at the White House, though this information comes from a single source without verification.

[4597.71s]
Michael Shellenberger Founder Substack | "Public" Newsletter

I'm not sure I understand.

[4598.71s]
Clay Higgins, U.S. Representative

This is a very broad description of biological effects. And it's striking to me that they are present with relation to some types of craft, but absent in others. This would require a great deal of research and study. Can you explain that?

[4618.72s]
Michael Shellenberger Founder Substack | "Public" Newsletter

My understanding is that the database is very large. It includes both the images, the videos, the still images, as well as the human intelligence, the reports, the raw data from individuals having these experiences. So in answer to your question, yeah, I mean, I think we're looking at a very large amount of data collected over many decades.

▶ ⚠ The potential role of NASA in studying UAPs is highlighted, with suggestions to leverage existing data archives and advanced technologies like AI and ML for analysis. However, it is noted that sensor bias may limit data collection from civilian areas.

[4638.77s]
Clay Higgins, U.S. Representative

And that data is held by the Department of Defense?

[4642.13s]
Michael Shellenberger Founder Substack | "Public" Newsletter

Well, I will say that after I published, I was told that this program was that the USAP was actually managed by the Department of Defense but held at the White House.

[4654.87s]
Clay Higgins, U.S. Representative

Roger that.

[4655.23s]
Michael Shellenberger Founder Substack | "Public" Newsletter

But that's a single source, and I don't have multiple sources to verify that.

[4659.64s]
Clay Higgins, U.S. Representative

Thank you, sir. I did my best to trick an answer out of you, but it was partially successful. Madam Chair, I yield.

[4667.05s]
Nancy Mace, U.S. Representative

Thank you. I now recognize Mr. Frost for five minutes of questions.

[4670.55s]
Maxwell Frost U.S. Representative

Thank you, Madam Chair. In addition to serving on this committee, the Oversight Committee, I also serve on the Science, Space, and Technology Committee, where we often discuss how essential data and evidence are used in science and used at departments such as NASA. During a hearing, NASA Administrator Nelson affirmed the importance of NASA in helping us to understand UAP. Mr. Gold, if the government doesn't have the data it needs on UAP because, say, someone who saw something is concerned about stigma public backlash, et cetera, or maybe there's just not good systems in place, how are we supposed to ultimately figure out what's going on?

Unidentified Aerial Phenomena Investigations

The conversation revolves around the investigation and study of Unidentified Aerial Phenomena (UAP), also known as Unidentified Flying Objects (UFOs). The speakers discuss the challenges in gathering data, the need for transparency and funding, and the potential implications of UAP sightings on national security.

[4713.98s]
Michael Gold Associate Administrator NASA | Space Policy and Partners

Yeah, thank you for the question. And let me compliment Administrator Nelson that there wouldn't have been a UAP independent study team if it wasn't for his leadership and courage. We're talking about data and where we can get data from. As I described, NASA has whole archives of data, much of which I believe will likely have information that will help inform UAP. We need only look. And again, in an era with AI and ML, we can relatively quickly and easily go through it. So I think it's something that we should encourage NASA to do. However, per Chairman Grothman's comment about UAP focusing on national security sites, I believe there's something, sir, that you may have heard of called sensor bias, that because we've got more cameras, more monitoring of national security, we don't know how extensive UAP activity may be over civilian areas. And this is to the second part of your question where we're not collecting the data. We're not collecting sufficient data from pilots.

[4768.47s]
Michael Gold Associate Administrator NASA | Space Policy and Partners

We're not collecting sufficient data from civilian and commercial activities. And this is, again, where ASRS, I think, could substantially change that, get the data out there, and allow us to do good science.

▶ ⚠ The speaker emphasizes that insufficient data is being collected from civilian and commercial activities, highlighting the potential role of ASRS in improving this situation.

[4779.59s]
Maxwell Frost U.S. Representative

Thank you. I mean, on the data, you know, I'm a really big proponent of transparency. But obviously, there's always a little bit of balance that we have to have in government on transparency as well. I mean, last year... NASA appointed a director of UAP research in response to the recommendation by the independent study team. In the final report, there's a quote, despite numerous accounts and visuals, the absence of consistent, detailed and curated observations means we do not presently have the body of data needed to make definite and scientific conclusions about UAP. Can you just talk really quickly about that balance of security and transparency?

[4819.26s]
Michael Gold Associate Administrator NASA | Space Policy and Partners

So I can say, having served at NASA, it is the most transparent organization I've ever been in. When we would have conversations of executive leadership, things would leak out almost instantly. So I can assure you, intentionally or not, NASA's very transparent. I don't know if many of you have worked with engineers or scientists. They love to talk. So I believe that NASA is a paradigm of transparency, but we must have the ability and the data to be able to be transparent with. And if we're not gathering that, if we're not looking at it, then we can't bring NASA into the game and get to that good science that you need.

▶ ⚠ A committee member references a NASA report stating that without consistent, detailed, and curated observations, definitive scientific conclusions about UAPs cannot be reached.

[4857.37s]
Maxwell Frost U.S. Representative

You know, it was about a year ago I was touring a facility with a pretty senior government official. We went by a certain hangar and they said, yeah, that's, you know, a company leases that out. We don't really know what's going on in there. We have no way of knowing what's going on in there. And there was a few of those, in fact, while we were driving around this facility. To what extent do you think that some of the UAP out there comes from off-the-books or unauthorized experimental aircraft?

[4888.26s]
Michael Gold Associate Administrator NASA | Space Policy and Partners

I mean, I think probably the vast majority of UAP are drones, experimental aircraft, weather conditions, which is, again, why I say if we review the data, I think we're going to discover a lot about things we weren't even thinking about. But there is a percentage that isn't. And looking into those anomalies... is how discoveries will be made. And relative to science, Congressman, if I can say, when NASA studies black holes, when NASA studies galaxies, we have instruments that are tailored to do so. With UAP, we're using cockpit gun cameras or cell phones. We could never do good science with that. And let me tell you, the NASA budget is under pressure. We need to make sure that the Artemis program is funded fully. We need to beat China to the moon and maintain our presence in low Earth orbit.

[4935.01s]
Michael Gold Associate Administrator NASA | Space Policy and Partners

NASA would need more money to do this, but I think tailored instruments that would look at UAP in the same way that we have tailored instruments to look at astronomical data is important to gathering valuable and uniform information. If we were studying black holes by using fighter cockpit cameras, we probably wouldn't know that much about black holes.

▶ ⚠ The discussion underscores the importance of transparency in government while acknowledging the challenges posed by limited data availability for meaningful disclosure.

[4953.67s]
Maxwell Frost U.S. Representative

A hundred percent. Well, I think it's important that federal leaders take the necessary steps to ensure that UAP does not pose threats to the American public as well, and that we have the necessary budgets to collect this data so we can actually see what's going on. And I'm fully supportive of funding the Artemis mission. I think it's very important. Also, a personal note, the pilot is a frat brother of mine. He is a member of the Phi Beta Sigma Fraternity Incorporated, and so I would love to see my fraternity make it to the moon.

[4984.87s]
Michael Gold Associate Administrator NASA | Space Policy and Partners

Redwire is building the cameras for Artemis, so we will take some pictures of your frat brother and get them.

▶ ⚠ A witness describes a situation where government facilities lease space without oversight, raising questions about potential unauthorized experimental aircraft contributing to UAP sightings.

[4988.78s]
Maxwell Frost U.S. Representative

There we go. Thank you so much. I yield back.

[4990.96s]
Nancy Mace, U.S. Representative

Thank you. I will now recognize Ms. Luna for five minutes of questioning.

[4994.72s]
Anna Paulina Luna, U.S. Representative

Mr. Elizondo, to your knowledge, can you name the country and around time frame that the first back-engineered UAP program started.

[5004.09s]
Luis Elizondo, Researcher, Department of Defense

Ma'am, unfortunately, I would not be able to have that conversation in public.

[5008.02s]
Anna Paulina Luna, U.S. Representative

Can anyone on the panel name that? I cannot. None of you? Okay. This next question is for Mr. Gallaudet. To your knowledge, have any USOs ever outpaced our submarines?

[5024.44s]
Tim Gallaudet, Chief Executive Officer

Yes, ma'am.

[5025.50s]
Anna Paulina Luna, U.S. Representative

At what magnitude?

[5026.79s]
Tim Gallaudet, Chief Executive Officer

I don't have the exact speed, but again, a witness came to me, a credible former submarine officer who observed it on sonar data. And this was in the 80s in the North Atlantic during a storm, and it outpaced his submarine by orders of magnitude.

▶ ⚠ A credible former submarine officer reported observing a UAP on sonar data in the North Atlantic during the 80s, noting it outpaced their submarine by orders of magnitude.

[5043.78s]
Anna Paulina Luna, U.S. Representative

Are you aware of any hot spots that currently exist off our shores in North America?

[5049.49s]
Tim Gallaudet, Chief Executive Officer

Not with sufficiently credible data, ma'am.

[5054.11s]
Anna Paulina Luna, U.S. Representative

Okay, we've heard reports of there potentially being hot spots, maybe entry and exit points. Have you heard of any of that?

[5062.64s]
Tim Gallaudet, Chief Executive Officer

I have not, ma'am, but my colleague here, Mr. Elizondo, does discuss some USO activity that he's observed in certain DOD databases.

[5073.27s]
Anna Paulina Luna, U.S. Representative

Mr. Elizondo, in regards to these aircraft being piloted by whatever they might be, non-human biologics, are you – would you – agree that it's likely that they are being piloted by some mind-body connection?

[5088.76s]
Luis Elizondo, Researcher, Department of Defense

Ma'am, I think it is safe to presume here that they are being intelligently controlled because some cases seem to anticipate our maneuvers, and in other cases they seem to – and I came across an email where the word stalked was used in a very secure email – between Navy officers discussing their ships being pursued by a UAP.

▶ ⚠ The need for specialized instruments to study UAPs is stressed, drawing a parallel to how NASA studies astronomical phenomena with tailored tools rather than using inadequate equipment like cockpit cameras.

▶ ⚠ While there is no sufficiently credible data on hot spots off North America, USO activity has been discussed in certain Department of Defense databases.

[5114.03s]
Anna Paulina Luna, U.S. Representative

In our previous panel, we had Grush, and he had testified to say that some of these were interdimensional beings. Can you speak on that at all?

[5122.20s]
Luis Elizondo, Researcher, Department of Defense

Ma'am, I'm not qualified, certainly as a scientist or otherwise, to speculate points of origin. I looked at everything from a scientific perspective. So if you look at, for example, instantaneous acceleration, which was one of the observables of the program that I belong to, AATIP, the human body can withstand about 9G forces for a short period of time before you suffer negative biological consequences, blackouts and ultimately redouts and even death. Comparison, our best technology, the F-16, which is an older platform, but one of our most highly maneuverable aircraft, manned aircraft, made by General Dynamics, can perform about 17 or 18 G-forces before you start having structural failure, meaning that the airframe begins to disintegrate while you're flying. The vehicles we're talking about are performing in excess of 1,000, 2,000, 3,000 Gs.

[5169.99s]
Anna Paulina Luna, U.S. Representative

So are you, I guess, would it be safe to infer that they're living...

Unidentified Aerial Phenomena

A congressional hearing on unidentified aerial phenomena (UAP) explores the possibility of extraterrestrial life and its implications for national security. The panelists discuss their experiences with UAP sightings and the importance of civilians reporting these incidents to improve aviation safety and advance scientific research.

[5176.79s]
Luis Elizondo, Researcher, Department of Defense

draft? You know, I'm not prepared at this point to state for the record is something alive or not, because even that definition is there was a time in science we thought that life required oxygen. And we now know that's not true. There are anaerobic bacteria that thrive in oxygen environments that lack oxygen. And so it's the same with photosynthesis. When I was in college, it was told everything is derived from photosynthesis. as a form of energy. In reality, that's not true. There are things that live off of chemosynthesis. So we're constantly having to reevaluate our understanding of what the definition of life is.

▶ ⚠ UAPs appear to be intelligently controlled, as evidenced by instances where they anticipated maneuvers and were described as "stalked" by Navy officers.

[5213.64s]
Anna Paulina Luna, U.S. Representative

Do any of you ever come across reports from people that claim to have firsthand experiences with these entities, whatever they might be, or these aircraft, and then as a result, whether or not they're religious, find that these things will automatically disappear? This is open to any of you on the panel. So just real quick, because I'm running out of time.

[5235.48s]
Luis Elizondo, Researcher, Department of Defense

Lou? Ma'am, I've always been a nuts and bolts kind of guy when I was at ATIP. I was focusing more on the performance characteristics and less on the potential occupants.

[5246.94s]
Anna Paulina Luna, U.S. Representative

Okay. The reason I ask is because it seems like just based on our conversations that we've had people that say that there are good and bad of whatever these things are. And so my concern from a national security perspective is, is A, that true? B, are you guys hearing the reports of that? And C, I think moving forward in regards to technology, Mr. Gold, if you can answer this real quickly, some of these aircraft, it seems that they are operating off of energy that we don't currently have. But just yes or no, in your opinion, if we were able to obtain that, would that impact humanity for the better or negative?

▶ ⚠ UAPs exhibit extreme performance capabilities, with some observed to withstand G-forces exceeding 1,000 to 3,000 Gs, far beyond human and current aircraft limits.

[5276.53s]
Michael Gold Associate Administrator NASA | Space Policy and Partners

It would certainly save us some money on funding on Artemis. Definitely. And this is a national security issue, that if there is such technology out there, we're not the only country that might have access to it. We don't want to be on the wrong end of technological surprise.

[5289.28s]
Nancy Mace, U.S. Representative

Okay. Thank you guys for your time. All right, thank you. I will now recognize Mr. Garcia for five minutes.

▶ ⚠ The witness states that multiple credible sources have confirmed the existence of a UAP retrieval program.

[5296.14s]
Mr. Garcia, U.S. Representative

Thank you, and I apologize for stepping out. My governor is here upstairs, so I'm trying to get in between meetings, so I apologize for that. I want to just start by just asking everyone on the panel, our witnesses, and I had a chance to read all the testimony before, but just to set the agenda, if we can go down real briefly, do you believe, just for the record, that the federal government, any part of the federal government, is knowingly concealing evidence about UAPs from the public?

▶ ⚠ The definition of life is being reevaluated due to discoveries like anaerobic bacteria and chemosynthesis, suggesting UAPs may challenge traditional biological definitions.

[5321.77s]
Tim Gallaudet, Chief Executive Officer

Yes, sir.

▶ ⚠ A committee member expresses concern over the lack of transparency from intelligence agencies.

[5322.29s]
Mr. Garcia, U.S. Representative

100%.

[5325.47s]
Michael Shellenberger Founder Substack | "Public" Newsletter

Yes.

[5327.39s]
Mr. Garcia, U.S. Representative

Yes. Thank you. I also want to just go down the line. I know many of you have already said this, but just for the record again, just briefly, what do you believe UAPs could be or are?

[5341.02s]
Tim Gallaudet, Chief Executive Officer

Strong evidence that they are non-human, higher intelligence. I echo my colleague's comment, sir.

[5350.07s]
Michael Shellenberger Founder Substack | "Public" Newsletter

Genuinely do not know.

[5353.68s]
Mr. Garcia, U.S. Representative

Don't know, but we must find out. Okay, thank you. I appreciate those answers, gentlemen. I think this is obviously another remarkable hearing with just really important information, so I thank all of you for answering the questions. Admiral, I just want to go back to one thing. Now, last year, our subcommittee heard from two retired Navy pilots, Lieutenant Ryan Graves and Commander David Fravor. Regarding UAPs, actually, I think Ryan is here in the audience and been a great person to get to know and to have conversations with. He, of course, has been involved in the Safe Airspace for Americans Act with Chairman Graves, with Chairwoman Mace for UAP reporting by civilian aviation personnel. Can you discuss briefly why it's important for civilian pilots to be able to report UAPs and why these legal protections are critical for national security?

▶ ⚠ The discussion highlights the limitations of current radar systems in tracking anomalous aerial objects.

[5404.10s]
Tim Gallaudet, Chief Executive Officer

Yes, Congressman, thank you. And I did invite... Ryan Graves is my guest as I'm on his advisory board for the Americans for Safe Aerospace. And the legislation that you supported and introduced, I fully support as well. And I think it's important that more civilian pilots, commercial pilots, report so we can better understand and learn and do research on UAP, as well as remove the stigma so more citizens report on what they observe. And also, it will only contribute to aviation safety when we have a better understanding of where these UAP are, how they operate, and at what frequency and what capability level. So it's important for aviation safety, and it'll be important for moving science and research forward. Thank you, sir.

[5444.97s]
Mr. Garcia, U.S. Representative

And I just want to just reiterate to my colleagues, I mean, this is a very bipartisan piece of legislation, and we just got to continue to get this through the Congress. And it's incredibly important that civilian pilots have the opportunity to safely report the UAPs that they are seeing or encountering in the air. And I can't express... how critical this piece of what I believe is a larger collection of evidence and facts actually happened. We've been approached by pilots. I've talked to folks that have been engaged with our office and others, and there is still enormous stigma. And essentially, we don't have a system where folks are feeling free to be able to report what they're seeing. And so I just want to reiterate that point. that advocacy. Mr. Gold, in your testimony, you discuss NASA's aviation safety reporting system, a confidential non-punitive reporting mechanism. In the Safe Airspace for Americans Act, we explicitly allow for civilian reporting, of course, of UAPs.

[5500.44s]
Mr. Garcia, U.S. Representative

Can you explain why the NASA task force recommended the use of the aviation safety reporting system?

[5507.37s]
Michael Gold Associate Administrator NASA | Space Policy and Partners

The aviation safety reporting system is an existing system that is trusted, that has taken hundreds of thousands, now millions of cases. And again, recognizing budgetary constraints, this seemed like the perfect way to be able to gain more data. And when it comes to the stigma, sir, it's something that pilots are used to reporting on, that crew is used to reporting on. So it's a great way to get data to overcome the stigma without spending really that much more additional money since the system exists. Thank you so much for your support of that. Thank you for what Ryan Graves does. This is a common sense means to expose the truth of UAP for the purpose of this hearing.

▶ ⚠ Witnesses emphasize the importance of civilian pilots reporting UAPs to enhance aviation safety and scientific understanding.

[5545.90s]
Mr. Garcia, U.S. Representative

Thank you. And I just want to also add, now, earlier this year, as part of the House Defense Authorization Bill, the NDAA, I filed an amendment to include the UAP Disclosure Act, which would create a UAP records review board with exercise of eminent domain over UAP-related material modeled actually on the JFK Assassination Records Collection Act, which is widely known. Now, the amendment was blocked. But thankfully, the Senate included the amendment by Senator Rounds and Schumer for the UAP Disclosure Act. So I just again want to say that we should be pushing and ensuring the UAP Disclosure Act, which is bipartisan in its support, should move forward. And if I can just briefly also, particularly Adam Roll, can you just briefly, as I close my time, explain why the UAP Disclosure Act would be critical for us and our national security?

[5594.08s]
Tim Gallaudet, Chief Executive Officer

Thank you, Congressman. Yes, I believe the UAP Disclosure Act is important for national security as well as advancing potential socioeconomic benefits resulting from UAP research as well as public safety as we referred to previously regarding aviation. And this act will allow for greater transparency and open research, and that's why I'm also a member of the UAP Disclosure Fund as an advisor, as in the SOUL Foundation, as a senior strategic advisor, which is advocating for the same. Thank you very much. I yield back.

▶ ⚠ A bipartisan amendment to create a UAP Disclosure Act was blocked in the House but passed in the Senate, aiming to increase transparency and address national security concerns.

▶ ⚠ The UAP Disclosure Act is emphasized as crucial for national security, socioeconomic benefits from UAP research, and public safety, while also advocating for transparency through initiatives like the UAP Disclosure Fund.

[5623.74s]
Nancy Mace, U.S. Representative

All right, thank you. I'd like to recognize Mr. Biggs for five minutes of questioning.

Overclassification and UFOs

A committee discusses overclassification of UAP information by government agencies, with Admiral Elizondo explaining that excessive secrecy has led to grave misdeeds against loyal civil servants, military personnel, and the public. The witnesses share their perspectives on why the federal government might be overclassifying this information, citing historical context, philosophical arguments, and institutional blockages of scientific ideas.

[5626.92s]
Andy Biggs, U.S. Representative

Thank you, Madam Chair. Thank you for holding this committee. Thank you to the witnesses. Admiral, the video that is called the GOFAST video, the email that you've talked about being deleted, I just want to briefly cover this. You said that the email, the author was asking whether any of the recipients were aware of the classified technology demonstrations that could explain the objects that were observed. And then you said the email disappears. Then you guys have a series of meetings. The commander of fleet forces and his operations officer never discussed the incident again. Is that accurate? That's accurate, sir. And even during weekly meetings, it was never discussed again. My question for you is, you were in those meetings. Did you personally hear that nothing was going on about that?

▶ ⚠ Concerns are raised about the deletion of an email discussing classified technology that could explain UAP observations, highlighting issues with information control and potential overclassification by intelligence agencies.

[5680.52s]
Tim Gallaudet, Chief Executive Officer

Yes, sir. I was in those meetings. Did you make inquiries about that? No, I did not, sir, because I inferred, since I had been read into other special access programs, that this UAP video was part of one that I was not read into or any of the recipients read into. or the author of the email, and that an intelligence agency basically pulled it back and instructed the author of the email, hey, this is, you just conducted what they call spillage into a lower classification level, and when that's done, the procedures are basically to remove any of the communication. You're going to silo it.

[5717.98s]
Andy Biggs, U.S. Representative

So, and you, Mr. Elizondo, you said in your report and your testimony today that A government work on the UAP subject still remains classified. Excessive secrecy has led to grave misdeeds against loyal civil servants, military personnel, and the public, all to hide the fact that we are not alone in the cosmos. Fair? Yes, sir. All right. And all of you, and Mr. Schellenberger, by the way, I've read several of your books, Mr. Schellenberger, excellent stuff. Thank you. What I would say, too, is you were asked about the veracity of the author of this report. Are you comfortable with veracity? Yes. Okay. And then I'll get to you in a second, Mr. Gold. We'll talk about Kunyan and Lakotoshan scientific advancement and our obviating that through these processes. But we'll get to that in a sec. Because what I want to really get to is the ultimate question really becomes this. For what purpose is the federal government overclassifying, because that's what they're doing, they're overclassifying,

▶ ⚠ Overclassification by the federal government is criticized as a means to suppress public access to UAP-related information, with reasons cited including Cold War-era secrecy and the difficulty of addressing unknown phenomena without clear answers.

[5785.37s]
Andy Biggs, U.S. Representative

And forbidding the public for getting access to this. And if you know, if you have an explanation, I'm curious because I know what I've been told. I just want to know from your perspective, why do they over classify? Mr. Elizondo, you look like your finger on the button ready to go. Yes, sir. Forgive me.

▶ ⚠ Excessive secrecy surrounding UAP research is accused of causing harm to loyal civil servants, military personnel, and the public, suggesting a need for greater openness about extraterrestrial possibilities.

[5806.42s]
Luis Elizondo, Researcher, Department of Defense

I think there are several reasons. I think at the time when this reality became evident to the U.S. government, we were in the middle of the Cold War with then-Soviet Union, and we did not want to tip our hands to what our knowledge base was on this topic. We did not want to broadcast that information. Cold War is long over. It is, sir. It is, sir. There's also then the philosophical argument that the Department of Defense and the intelligence community is solution-oriented. And when you don't have answers, it's a really tough spot to be in.

[5837.22s]
Andy Biggs, U.S. Representative

It's easier to be quiet and suppressed than if you don't have the answers.

[5840.97s]
Luis Elizondo, Researcher, Department of Defense

Indeed, sir. In fact, there's a very real example when we built a U-2 spy plane and flew it over then- And we're taking reconnaissance. And when we first started flying the aircraft, it flew so high and so fast we thought they weren't tracking us. In reality, they were tracking every flight. It wasn't until the Russians could develop the SA-2 surface-to-air missile and successfully shoot it down.

▶ ⚠ The justification for overclassification is explored, with Cold War-era concerns about revealing knowledge to adversaries and the preference for suppression over addressing unanswered questions being cited as key factors.

▶ ⚠ The witness provides an example of U.S. intelligence being compromised during the early flights of the U-2 spy plane, highlighting historical vulnerabilities in aerial reconnaissance.

[5862.52s]
Andy Biggs, U.S. Representative

I would suggest to you also, along with Lakatos and Kuhn, you also have a problem with Kenneth Arrow's path dependence or increasing returns. That's one reason why they won't disclose it. It's too painful to admit. But I just want to read a couple things from Mr. Schellenberger's, what he gave to us today, because I think this is interesting stuff, and I just want to convey this to you. On USG networks, there exists infrared footage of and imagery of a grouping of vessels engaged in signet and mass collection at night in a specific area of the Pacific Ocean. This footage, which was in close proximity to the vessels, a large equilateral triangle UAP suddenly appears directly over the ship's These three bright points are seen at each bottom corner of the UAP, which is observed to slowly rotate on its horizontal axis. And he goes on to describe that. And I just want to read one more. And I'm doing this because I think it's interesting. This stuff is interesting as anything.

[5925.88s]
Andy Biggs, U.S. Representative

So let's get this one here, right here. While performing a routine airspace surveillance and control mission in the Eastern Air Defense Sector, an F-22 fighter observed multiple UAP contacts at mission altitude. Moving to intercept the F-22 pilot noted multiple metallic orbs slightly smaller than a sedan hovering in place. Upon vectoring towards the UAPs, a smaller formation of the metallic orbs accelerated at rapid speed towards the F-22, which was unable to establish radar locks on the presumed hostile UAPs The F-22 broke trajectory and attempted to evade, but was intercepted and boxed in by approximately three to six UAPs. And then I'll leave that there because I just have no more time left. Well, she's not looking. So let's just get into part of this. I thought I would be saved by the bell. No, no. Let's talk about Kunyan, Lakotoshian type of scientific development.

▶ ⚠ A committee member references infrared footage showing a large equilateral triangle-shaped UAP with bright points at its corners, observed near vessels in the Pacific Ocean.

[5982.52s]
Andy Biggs, U.S. Representative

And the problem that we have here is you have institutional blockage of what would be normal development of scientific ideas. And if you want to expand that, Mr. Gold.

[5993.18s]
Nancy Mace, U.S. Representative

We're over time, so be very fast, please.

[5995.54s]
Michael Gold Associate Administrator NASA | Space Policy and Partners

I'll just say I'm a recovering attorney, so please take it easy on the science. But all breakthroughs have been heretical at first, and that's the challenge that we face, particularly with something as extraordinary as this, which is why gathering the data is so important. And I'll just end by saying, by the way, the over-classification of material is in no way limited to UAP. That is occurring throughout the government, as well as the inability to get people classifications in a timely and efficient manner, and then to have those classifications be broad enough to be useful. So this is a larger issue that I hope the Congress will look at.

▶ ⚠ The discussion includes an account of an F-22 fighter encountering metallic orbs that evaded radar and displayed advanced maneuverability, suggesting potential threats or unknown capabilities.

[6026.73s]
Nancy Mace, U.S. Representative

Thank you. Thank you, Mr. Biggs. I've been generous. All right, Mr. Burleson, I'll recognize you for five minutes of questions, please.

▶ ⚠ A witness highlights systemic issues with over-classification of government materials, which hinders transparency and collaboration across agencies.

[6034.98s]
Mr. Laturner

Thank you, Madam Chair. Mr. Elizondo. Does any branch of the United States government or defense contractors possess technology?

[6048.48s]
Luis Elizondo, Researcher, Department of Defense

Sir, there's documentation that I believe was submitted for the record that was approved for release by the U.S. Pentagon by the Department of Defense Office of Pre-Publication Security Review, and it states one of the reasons why my predecessor program, OSAP, was trying to collect material of unknown origin.

[6072.27s]
Mr. Laturner

Was it successfully collected?

[6074.13s]
Luis Elizondo, Researcher, Department of Defense

It was not. What happened is that there was an aerospace contract company that requested to divest itself of the material that was collected in 1950s. Unfortunately, that didn't actually occur.

[6085.72s]
Mr. Laturner

So let's dive into that. That's the Bigelow Airspace, correct? So there was a journalist, Christopher Sharp, who said that there was a transfer between Lockheed Martin, Bigelow Airspace, and the CIA allegedly blocked this. Can you describe that?

▶ ⚠ The transcript mentions historical attempts to collect UAP-related material in the 1950s being blocked by Lockheed Martin, Bigelow Aerospace, and the CIA, indicating long-standing efforts to suppress or control such information.

UAP Biological Materials and Secrecy

The transcript excerpt features an interview with a witness, Mr. Elizondo, who discusses his experiences and observations regarding Unidentified Aerial Phenomena (UAP). He provides insights into the U.S. government's involvement, the existence of biological samples, and the potential for non-human life forms to communicate.

[6102.23s]
Luis Elizondo, Researcher, Department of Defense

What I can say is that it was blocked. Why it was blocked, I can only surmise. I was part of some conversations later on with some of those contract personnel where they had told all of us that is accurate. What we required was a memo from the Secretary of the Air Force in order to make that complete. And that never occurred. And so when Secretary Mattis became Secretary of Defense, I decided it would be appropriate for me to try to receive a memo from him as SECDEF, as Secretary of Defense, if we could not get a memo from the Secretary of the Air Force to transfer that material.

▶ ⚠ The witness mentions that a memo from the Secretary of the Air Force was required to transfer material related to UAPs but never occurred, highlighting bureaucratic hurdles in accessing information.

[6137.82s]
Mr. Laturner

So if that material exists today, who's in possession?

▶ ⚠ The committee member questions who possesses the UAP-related material today if it still exists, emphasizing the classified nature of such information.

[6142.99s]
Luis Elizondo, Researcher, Department of Defense

Sir, I wouldn't be able to have that conversation in an open hearing. We'd probably have to have that.

[6147.54s]
Mr. Laturner

Okay, my question to you then is, If we were in a secure setting, if we were in a SCIF, would you be able to provide or get access to something, whether it's visuals or material that we could put our hands on or biologics, that would convince me, that would show me... That we have non-human origins.

[6172.21s]
Luis Elizondo, Researcher, Department of Defense

Sir, that decision would not be mine. That would be to the gatekeepers still in the U.S. government.

▶ ⚠ The witness refers to "gatekeepers" within the U.S. government as those responsible for controlling access to evidence that could prove non-human origins, indicating a need for secure discussions.

[6176.38s]
Mr. Laturner

And who would we – so if you were in our shoes, where would you go from here? How would you get that information? How would – a lot of times we just don't know who to ask because we don't know where to go next. So if you were in our shoes, where would you go?

[6190.24s]
Luis Elizondo, Researcher, Department of Defense

Well, I prefer to answer that question in a closed session. However, we established Arrow for that very purpose, and unfortunately, under its previous leadership, it failed. So one would hope that they would have the authorities necessary to do that. Let's hope that this new iteration of leadership will be successful.

[6211.13s]
Mr. Laturner

In the discussions, it's simply about material, or is there discussion about biologics? It was previously testified that there was biologics that were collected. Are you aware of any of that?

[6221.92s]
Luis Elizondo, Researcher, Department of Defense

I am, sir, aware of the reporting that biologics have been recovered. Again, my focus was more nuts and bolts, looking at the physical aspects of these phenomenon, how they interacted around military equities and nuclear equities. So I'm certainly not a medical expert. I would not be able to probably provide you a whole lot of value in that simply because I don't have the expertise.

[6244.19s]
Mr. Laturner

Was anything described as that we have possession of bodies? Yes. Is it multiple types of creatures or?

[6252.11s]
Luis Elizondo, Researcher, Department of Defense

Sir, I couldn't answer that. I can tell you anecdotally that it was it was. discussed quite a bit when I was at the Pentagon. The problem is the supposed collection of these biological samples occurred before my time, in fact, before I was even born.

▶ ⚠ The discussion acknowledges reports of recovered biologics related to UAPs but notes that the witness's expertise is limited to physical aspects like interactions with military assets.

[6264.95s]
Mr. Laturner

And was this part of the Lockheed Martin discussion, or was this completely, the biologics is a completely separate? Separate yet related. Okay. Has anyone made contact? Sir, I'm sorry, could you specify? Has there been any, to your knowledge, any communication with a non-human life form?

[6285.68s]
Luis Elizondo, Researcher, Department of Defense

so the term communication is a bit of a trick word because there's verbal communication like we're having now the problem is you also have non-verbal communication and so i would say definitively yes but from a non-verbal meaning when a russian reconnaissance aircraft comes into u.s airspace we scramble two f-22s and we are certainly communicating intent and capability i think the same goes with this we have these things that are being observed over controlled u.s airspace And they're not really doing a good job hiding themselves. They're making it pretty obvious they have the ability to even interfere with our nuclear equities and our nuclear readiness.

[6320.58s]
Mr. Laturner

Is the United States government and our contractors, are they pulling technology from this? Are they reverse engineering this?

[6330.40s]
Luis Elizondo, Researcher, Department of Defense

Sir, as I previously stated, please forgive me, I am not authorized to discuss this. specifics about crash retrievals. Again, I signed documentation with the U.S. government. What I can say was, after a very thorough review process by the Pentagon, what I wrote about. And that was my limit, unfortunately, that I was given. Thank you. Yes, sir.

▶ ⚠ The committee member asks about reverse engineering technology from UAPs, but the witness declines to discuss specifics due to authorization limits, suggesting ongoing classified activities in this area.

[6351.75s]
Nancy Mace, U.S. Representative

Thank you. I would like to recognize Mr. Timmons for five minutes of questioning.

[6356.02s]
Mr. Timmons, U.S. Representative

Thank you, Madam Chair. Mr. Elizondo, you just said something interesting. You said they don't seem to be hiding. They don't seem to be hiding. The UAP sightings are becoming increasingly brash, if you will. And, you know, we've been hearing about these for years, but they've generally been isolated and not as consistent and over critical military installations. Would you say that's fair? Is this becoming increasingly often? Is it happening more and more?

▶ ⚠ The witness notes that UAP sightings are increasingly occurring near critical military installations, raising concerns about potential targeting or heightened activity.

[6385.19s]
Luis Elizondo, Researcher, Department of Defense

Great question, sir. Let me see if I can answer this for you. Certainly there seems to be some indication that they're being provocative, meaning that they're in some cases literally splitting aircraft formations right down the middle. So that's an air safety issue. The question is, is it the frequency increasing? And really the response is, it depends. Yes, it's possible that there is an increase in frequency, but it's also possible that there's heightened awareness now, and there's also more pervasiveness of technology out there that's collecting this information and that can record this information. So we're not quite sure yet if it's actually an increase in numbers of these events, or is it that we have better equipment now to record these things and we have a better ability, if you will, to analyze these things.

[6431.45s]
Mr. Timmons, U.S. Representative

And that's my next question. It seems that a lot of these sightings occur near military installations. Do you think that These UAPs are intentionally targeting military installations, or do you think that we have increased abilities to monitor surrounding military installations?

▶ ⚠ A committee member questions whether the rise in UAP reports reflects an actual increase in incidents or improved detection and reporting capabilities due to better technology and awareness.

[6447.53s]
Luis Elizondo, Researcher, Department of Defense

Sir, it may be both. Part of my concern is we have something in the Department of Defense and the intelligence community called IPB, initial preparations of the battle space. And we use equities like ISR, intelligence, surveillance, reconnaissance, and other type of equities and technologies to prep the battle space. And certainly, you know, if I was wearing my national security hat, even if there was a 2% chance that there was some sort of hostile intent here, that's 2% higher than we really can accept. And so we must figure out, there's a calculus, capabilities versus intent, in order to identify if something is a national security threat. We've seen some of the capabilities, yet we have no idea the intent. And so this is why this discussion is somewhat, I think, problematic from a governmental perspective, because we have no idea.

[6494.75s]
Mr. Timmons, U.S. Representative

Sure, thank you. Mr. Schellenberger, you're particularly familiar with the Langley Air Force Base incident a year ago?

[6500.41s]
Michael Gold Associate Administrator NASA | Space Policy and Partners

Are you familiar? Just from what I read in the news.

[6502.10s]
Mr. Timmons, U.S. Representative

Just from what you've read? Yeah. I would imagine a large percentage of the American population became aware of that with the Wall Street Journal article. Would you agree with that? Yes. And were you aware of that incident prior to the Wall Street Journal article? No. To the rest of the panel, was the Wall Street Journal article the first time that y'all were made aware of what was essentially an over-two-week UAP frenzy over Langley Air Force Base? Were y'all aware of this prior to the Wall Street Journal article? Anybody? Show of hands. Yes, sir. Dr. Gayet, could you give me your – how did you become aware of it?

▶ ⚠ The panel discusses national security implications, noting that even a small probability of hostile intent necessitates serious consideration, given the unknown capabilities and intentions behind UAPs.

[6542.76s]
Tim Gallaudet, Chief Executive Officer

Well, a colleague of mine who I referenced previously, Chris Mellon, he wrote an extensive article about this, that there were other incursions of drones over Langley before this, as well as many, many military installations over the last five decades.

Unidentified Aerial Phenomena and Defense

The hearing transcripts reveal discussions on UAPs, their potential connection to China or non-human entities, and the need for authorities to address these issues. The conversation also touches on the Pentagon's Immaculate Constellation program and its relationship to UAP activities in oceanic environments.

[6557.82s]
Mr. Timmons, U.S. Representative

And it's my understanding there's been an ever-increasing number, and I'm trying to think how to say this, because... I wear two different hats. I'm still in the Air Force. So it seems that they're becoming increasingly brash. And the question that we really have to figure out is, is it China or is it non-human? And I think that's the biggest question the American people want to know. If it's China, it's scary because they have a lot of technology that we cannot explain. And if it's non-human, that's scary because we don't know the intent.

▶ ⚠ The Langley Air Force Base incident is highlighted as a significant event that gained public attention through media coverage, underscoring the impact of such incidents on public awareness.

[6588.19s]
Tim Gallaudet, Chief Executive Officer

Would you say that's fair? Yes, Congressman. In fact, I really believe that we should use this hearing as a catalyst to improve and bolster our air defense capabilities and our maritime domain awareness capabilities, because obviously there are holes in it, whether it be UAP of non-HI direction or NHI direction or, as you say, sir, China or any other adversary.

▶ ⚠ The need to enhance air defense and maritime domain awareness capabilities is emphasized to address potential threats from UAPs or adversaries like China.

[6612.74s]
Mr. Timmons, U.S. Representative

Are you all aware of any task force at the Pentagon or in the national security apparatus that's trying to assess the answer to that question?

[6619.44s]
Tim Gallaudet, Chief Executive Officer

At the current moment, sir, no, but this is a great point. From 2020 to 2022, there was a UAP task force in the DOD succeeding where Mr. Elizondo worked, led by Jay Stratton, who had the first comprehensive whole government approach to UAP, which involved pathways to declassification and to increase transparency, as well as assessing the national security risks of UAP and This was a really well-established approach, and we have all advocated that something like it return.

[6652.58s]
Mr. Timmons, U.S. Representative

I'm running out of time. The last thing is that we need authorities. The law enforcement, military do not have authorities to actually engage, and Congress needs to act to give those authorities to local law enforcement and the military so they have clear guidelines on how to assess these issues going forward. I yield back. Thank you.

[6670.42s]
Nancy Mace, U.S. Representative

Thank you. I'd like to recognize Ms. Boebert for five minutes of questioning.

[6673.74s]
MS. Boebert, U.S. Representative

Thank you, Madam Chair. Now that we have all been cautioned in this committee hearing that the mention of Pentagon's Immaculate Constellation program could put us on a list, well, I already find myself on many lists, I'm sure. So I speak my mind often, so why not just keep going with it? May as well just go all out and say it. The earth is flat. Birds are government drones. And we've never set foot on the moon, and Joe Biden received 81 million votes in the 2020 election. So let's just see how many lists we could get on here today. But Mr. Schellenberger, I wanted to ask you, I think I understand from this hearing that you would agree that classifying information like this is not in the best interest of the people. Is that correct?

[6723.76s]
Michael Shellenberger Founder Substack | "Public" Newsletter

Yeah, I mean, with the caveat that, of course, I would support classification necessary to protect secrets essential to national security, but I think it's pretty obvious that there's over-classification.

[6733.53s]
MS. Boebert, U.S. Representative

Over-classification, yes. And so, in most instances, if they can't tell us what, do you think at some point they'll at least tell us why?

[6740.78s]
Michael Shellenberger Founder Substack | "Public" Newsletter

You know, President-elect Trump has repeatedly committed to greater transparency, both on the UAP issue, on... JFK files on COVID origins and many other things. So I think that we need to make sure that the next administration is held accountable for that.

[6758.12s]
MS. Boebert, U.S. Representative

Agreed. And this is for all four of you. Yes or no, please. I have many questions I want to get to. Are there any known instances of recovered materials or technologies that are not of human origin and may be connected to any advanced bioscience defense programs within the USG?

[6779.92s]
Luis Elizondo, Researcher, Department of Defense

I don't know. I wouldn't be able to answer that, ma'am. I don't know. I don't know.

[6786.74s]
MS. Boebert, U.S. Representative

Okay, so there are rumors that have come up to the Hill of a secretive project within the Department of Defense involving the manipulation of human genetics with what is described as non-human genetic material, potentially for the enhancement of human capabilities, hybrids. Are any of you familiar with that? Yes or no?

[6810.21s]
Luis Elizondo, Researcher, Department of Defense

No, ma'am. I am not, ma'am. I am not. No, ma'am.

[6815.20s]
MS. Boebert, U.S. Representative

Okay, I would like to know, with immaculate constellation, how does this relate to UAP activities, Mr. Schellenberg, in oceanic environments? Are there any instances where the Navy or other marine time forces have encountered UAPs that could not be explained by known technology or natural phenomena?

[6839.15s]
Michael Shellenberger Founder Substack | "Public" Newsletter

Yeah, the Megalithic Constellation covers both terrestrial and oceanic, and there's actually a number of cases described in the report that occur in the ocean.

[6848.38s]
MS. Boebert, U.S. Representative

And do you believe that there is a concerted effort by the Pentagon to keep Congress out of the loop regarding these UAP activities, specifically in our waters?

[6856.71s]
Michael Shellenberger Founder Substack | "Public" Newsletter

Yes.

[6857.29s]
MS. Boebert, U.S. Representative

I think it's about 5% of our ocean that's actually been... studied in detail by man, and we've studied more of space than we have of our own oceans. And so are there any accounts of UAPs emerging from or submerging into our water, which could indicate a base or presence beneath the ocean's surface?

[6879.85s]
Michael Shellenberger Founder Substack | "Public" Newsletter

I don't know about a base, but as I mentioned, I had a different source entirely describe this pretty extraordinary footage that exists of an orb coming out of the ocean and being met by another orb.

[6890.92s]
MS. Boebert, U.S. Representative

Some would say that there's multiple hotspots where we see frequent activity. So in your investigations, have you come across any data or visual evidence like sonar readings or underwater footage of these UAPs?

▶ ⚠ The discussion highlights that UAPs have been observed in multiple hotspots with frequent activity, but no additional data or visual evidence beyond what is in the report has been found.

[6905.45s]
Michael Shellenberger Founder Substack | "Public" Newsletter

I have not beyond what's in the report.

[6908.00s]
MS. Boebert, U.S. Representative

You've written about UAPs not only in the air but in underwater. Are there any specifics on what you've learned about the UAP activity in our oceans? Particularly, have you spoken with sources who have provided any evidence or eyewitness accounts of these UAPs interacting with our naval forces or being detected by our underwater surveillance systems?

▶ ⚠ The witness confirms that UAP activity underwater has been referenced in reports and specific cases involving orbs, but no further information is available.

[6934.24s]
Michael Shellenberger Founder Substack | "Public" Newsletter

Nothing beyond what's in the report and in the specific case that I mentioned with the orbs.

[6938.85s]
MS. Boebert, U.S. Representative

So this report says it all. There's no other information that we are aware of regarding the activity within our waters.

▶ ⚠ A committee member mentions having sources with significant information on UAPs, though they are not comfortable sharing it publicly at this time.

[6947.42s]
Michael Shellenberger Founder Substack | "Public" Newsletter

I have other sources that have told me that have shared a significant amount of information, but they're not comfortable with me sharing it at this point.

[6954.89s]
MS. Boebert, U.S. Representative

Okay, are there any technological capabilities observed in these oceanic UAPs that seem to defy our current understanding of physics or our engineering capabilities? It seems like they all do. Yes, I would agree with that. And my time is up, but I do appreciate your bravery, your courage for coming here and speaking today. And it seems like there's still some questions that we need answers to, and we will not relent until we get those to the American people. Thank you all.

▶ ⚠ The witness agrees that the technological capabilities observed in oceanic UAPs appear to defy current understanding of physics and engineering.

[6988.16s]
Nancy Mace, U.S. Representative

Thank you. I move to allow myself and the ranking member five additional minutes for questions without objection so ordered. Mr. Elizondo, were you read into the Immaculate Constellation program?

[6998.88s]
Luis Elizondo, Researcher, Department of Defense

Ma'am, I would not be authorized to confirm nor deny the existence of any ongoing or past program, especially as it relates to a special access program, either by name or trigraph.

[7010.89s]
Nancy Mace, U.S. Representative

Okay, and then are there, does the U.S. government or private contractors, do they work with other foreign countries, China, for example, to exchange data, quote, from a source, that intelligence data about UAP?

[7023.57s]
Luis Elizondo, Researcher, Department of Defense

Let me see if I can answer that a little bit more generally, ma'am, if I may. We do have foreign material exploitation programs That is something that is widely known, and that term itself is unclassified. How exactly that works becomes a bit sensitive. It's a discussion we could certainly have in a closed session if you like. We do work with international partners and allies quite often, not just in military exercises and workups. but in other intelligence efforts as well.

[7051.86s]
Nancy Mace, U.S. Representative

In terms of material that's given to private contractors, is certain material given to certain contractors because of their experience? So for example, if it's related to submerged and undersea propulsion, would it go to a general contractor like General Dynamics?

Defining Non-Human Intelligence and Assessing UAP Threats

The transcript excerpt details a hearing on Unidentified Aerial Phenomena (UAPs) where experts discuss their experiences and concerns. Lockheed Martin's involvement in UAP research is touched upon, as well as the potential risks to pilots and national security. The discussion also delves into the definition of non-human intelligence, with some panelists suggesting that it might not be biological.

[7066.43s]
Luis Elizondo, Researcher, Department of Defense

Yes, ma'am, absolutely correct. Different contractors have different levels of expertise. What's Lockheed's expertise? Aerospace, ma'am.

[7073.84s]
Nancy Mace, U.S. Representative

In the UAP space, that's all? They wouldn't do submerged?

[7078.74s]
Luis Elizondo, Researcher, Department of Defense

No, I didn't say that, ma'am. Lockheed Martin and others do quite a bit of work both in our atmosphere, in space, and even underwater. There are certain efforts to – it's a tough question you're asking. You're putting me on the spot here.

[7096.30s]
Nancy Mace, U.S. Representative

I'm looking for the answer.

[7097.26s]
Luis Elizondo, Researcher, Department of Defense

Yes, ma'am. No, they are involved in a lot. I would rather let Lockheed Martin explain the difference. domains that they are involved with. Probably not authorized to discuss that, but they are involved in a lot of different areas and domains.

[7109.49s]
Nancy Mace, U.S. Representative

Admiral, flight safety risks for our pilots, based on what you've experienced and seen in your career?

[7115.94s]
Tim Gallaudet, Chief Executive Officer

They're extensive, and one exercise I referred to where I received the email that was then deleted was the pilots, and this is worth bringing out. There are debunkers out there who have said the GOFAST video was just a balloon. That was only one video that was released. There were dozens of these encounters that pilots and friends of Ryan Graves, who's in this room right here, witnessed and caused significant safety concerns. And to almost call out and exercise it and shut it down, which is very compressed and the carrier is getting ready for deployment and the pilots have to get certified to land on a carrier, it's extreme to say the least.

▶ ⚠ Flight safety risks for pilots are emphasized due to encounters with UAPs, including deleted emails and significant concerns raised by pilots during training exercises.

[7154.54s]
Nancy Mace, U.S. Representative

All right, I have two last questions. Real quickly, Mr. Schellenberger, how do we get more whistleblowers to come forward?

▶ ⚠ The witness emphasizes the importance of protecting whistleblowers and ensuring their identities remain confidential if they come forward with information about UAPs.

[7162.87s]
Michael Shellenberger Founder Substack | "Public" Newsletter

Well, this hearing is very important, and obviously I can't encourage whistleblowers to obtain information, but I can guarantee that I will protect them and go to prison to protect their identities if they come to me.

[7175.87s]
Nancy Mace, U.S. Representative

Yes, sir. Okay, my last question. The first hearing we had on this, I never briefed on UAPs or what they were, biologics, non-human, etc., How would you define, each of you, my last question, how would you define non-human biologics, non-human intelligence? What are we actually talking about? Admiral, and we'll go down the line.

[7196.64s]
Tim Gallaudet, Chief Executive Officer

I don't think it's a stretch when you look at the diversity of life on this planet and the size of this universe to think that there would be more diverse, higher order, non-human intelligence throughout the universe. And that's probably what's visiting us.

[7209.50s]
Luis Elizondo, Researcher, Department of Defense

I would take the scientific approach. The definition would be the ability to react to a stimulus in a manner that requires an intellectual thought process.

[7222.08s]
Michael Shellenberger Founder Substack | "Public" Newsletter

I just don't know.

[7224.22s]
Michael Gold Associate Administrator NASA | Space Policy and Partners

I think we must be modest in our assumptions that we're looking for intelligence that could be biological. It might not.

[7231.04s]
Nancy Mace, U.S. Representative

Non-biological, but what non-biological intelligence, what does that mean though?

[7235.76s]
Michael Gold Associate Administrator NASA | Space Policy and Partners

Artificial intelligence, ML, machines. We assume that all intelligence would be like us. And every time we look out in the universe, we are humbled relative to what we don't know in terms of the forms of intelligence and what it may take. I can assure you, I probably can't ask you your question, but I think the ultimate answer is going to surprise us all.

▶ ⚠ A committee member questions how non-human biologics and intelligence should be defined, suggesting that such entities could include diverse forms of life or technology beyond human understanding.

[7253.48s]
Nancy Mace, U.S. Representative

And then, Mr. Garcia, did a few closing remarks.

[7256.28s]
Mr. Garcia, U.S. Representative

And I know we're about to get votes here, so I'll be brief. Just I want to thank you all for being here. I want to thank Chairwoman Mace especially for holding this important bipartisan hearing. And I want to thank all the committee members that are interested in this topic. I think our commitment to all of you and all the folks who have contacted us and certainly to. of the advocates and the pilots is that we need to continue investigating UAPs. I think the country owes, the country is owed explanations and ensure that the safety of national security is always protected. This is a conversation and questioning that must continue. So I'm very grateful to all of you. And I also just wanna just add, just personally, I think it's really important for me, two things guide my questioning and my observations on UAPs is one is We should always be guided by facts, science, and data, and stay serious on those issues.

[7308.95s]
Mr. Garcia, U.S. Representative

And the second thing is I think that we should not limit our imagination and our thoughts and our curiosity on what UAPs could actually be. And I think those two things for me are really important, and I'm grateful for all of you to be here. So with that, I yield back.

▶ ⚠ The discussion highlights the need for a scientific approach to defining non-human intelligence, focusing on the ability to react to stimuli through intellectual processes rather than assuming human-like characteristics.

[7322.44s]
Nancy Mace, U.S. Representative

Okay, and we have Mr. Ogles, who is on the way. He's going to be here any second. Is that correct? Yes. And he'll be the last member with questions that we have today, and then we have votes. So we want to thank you all for being here. I want to thank Mr. Garcia and folks on both sides of the aisle for being here today and being patient. We have a lot more questions, and I hope that this will open the door to more hearings in the future. I obviously would like to know how much taxpayers are spending. On this, you have the right to know, but also if we're spending money on something that doesn't exist, why are we spending the money? And if it does exist, why are we hiding it from the public?

▶ ⚠ A committee member stresses the importance of balancing facts, science, and data with curiosity and imagination when exploring UAPs, emphasizing that the ultimate answers may surprise us all.

[7362.08s]
Nancy Mace, U.S. Representative

And of course, our national security is a huge issue because if there's technology that could harm us or allies that are in the hands of our adversaries, we obviously want to stay ahead of that to the best of our ability to ensure that that technology is not in the hands of someone who could use it against us. or allies anywhere in the world. So Mr. Ogles, you're just in time, babe. I will recognize you for five minutes of questioning before we head on out today.

[7403.15s]
Andy Ogles IV U.S. Representative U.S. House of Representatives

Well, thank you all for being here. And Madam Chairwoman, I'm out of breath because I sprinted to get here. But this is an important hearing. I think we all know that there's something going on. Mr. Elizondo, based on your knowledge of UAP sightings, do you believe it's fair to say that they are especially common near nuclear sites?

▶ ⚠ Concerns are raised about taxpayer funding for UAP investigations, questioning whether resources are being allocated appropriately and whether transparency is lacking regarding the existence or nature of UAPs.

[7425.41s]
Luis Elizondo, Researcher, Department of Defense

Yes, sir. Mr. Congressman, I absolutely am convinced of that, as are my colleagues inside the government.

▶ ⚠ The witness highlights that UAPs have been observed near sensitive locations such as Oak Ridge, Savannah River Site, and Los Alamos, suggesting these areas may be under surveillance or monitoring.

[7433.30s]
Andy Ogles IV U.S. Representative U.S. House of Representatives

And the reason why I pose that question, and this has been one of my talking points from the beginning, is Oak Ridge is in Tennessee. The so-called weather balloon that drifted that we now know was controlled, it passed near Oak Ridge. It obviously is a sensitive site, both of interest to our adversaries and to whatever else this is. Because we know that at military installations, at sensitive locations such as nuclear facilities, that we're seeing this take place. So the question is, what is it? Do you believe they've caused an irregular activity, and why might they be interested in those sites?

[7475.68s]
Luis Elizondo, Researcher, Department of Defense

Sir, in some cases, it's actually regular activity. You'd be surprised. There's actually documentation right now that's been submitted. It's not just Oak Ridge. It's Savannah River site, SRS. It's also Los Alamos. A lot of our sensitive R&D locations appear to be under some sort of surveillance and monitoring program. Why? Well, because a lot of innovation comes out of those areas, a lot of new technologies, a lot of, if you will, disruptive technologies that we use for our national defense originates out of those locations and advanced concepts in physics as well. So if I was doing any type of reconnaissance, even on a foreign adversary, that's a great target to start with.

[7517.24s]
Andy Ogles IV U.S. Representative U.S. House of Representatives

Sure, and again, this has been one of my talking points. I do have questions. What role might the Department of Energy or its subsidiaries or affiliates have in this type of technology or possessing this type of technology, whether it's ours or others? Mr. Guyudet, I think your testimony has been pretty clear, but would you please reiterate that do you believe UAPs pose a threat to pilots?

▶ ⚠ Concern is raised about the potential threat posed by UAPs to pilots, with specific mention of incidents involving Navy pilots in 2015 and ongoing risks to both commercial and military aviation.

[7544.01s]
Tim Gallaudet, Chief Executive Officer

Excuse me. Yes, sir. Absolutely. They were threatening Navy pilots during the exercise that my people were involved with in 2015, and it's my understanding they're risking pilot safety, commercial and military, today.

Ensuring Transparency and Oversight on UAP

The Congressman expressed concern over the lack of transparency regarding unidentified aerial phenomena (UAP), citing potential threats to personnel and national security. He emphasized the importance of oversight and accountability, suggesting that it is "criminal" for any entity to prevent Congress from accessing information about UAP. The subcommittee then adjourned without further business.

[7558.89s]
Andy Ogles IV U.S. Representative U.S. House of Representatives

Well, considering, and I understand that there's a need in some cases to keep certain technologies secret, but you believe that it is posing a threat to our personnel, correct?

[7572.07s]
Tim Gallaudet, Chief Executive Officer

Yes, sir.

▶ ⚠ The discussion emphasizes the lack of transparency from the government regarding UAPs, which undermines Congress's oversight responsibilities and raises concerns about accountability.

[7573.19s]
Andy Ogles IV U.S. Representative U.S. House of Representatives

So I think it's reasonable to conclude that if there is a threat to our personnel who are serving our country faithfully, that there be oversight.

[7585.87s]
Tim Gallaudet, Chief Executive Officer

100%, Congressman. And, in fact, that's the one thing that we've not talked about enough during this hearing is the fact that the government executive branch not sharing with Congress what it knows about UAP infringes on your legislative and oversight responsibilities to such an extent That's very concerning. I mean, what else are we, if you look at national security or intelligence or foreign affairs or appropriations, you all have oversight and legislative responsibility regarding those. This UAP issue may be the greatest issue of our time, and it's being hit from you.

[7618.20s]
Andy Ogles IV U.S. Representative U.S. House of Representatives

Well, I mean, and to your point, I think we've seen over the decades that we have certain adversaries like China, like Russia, that technologically speaking are not as advanced as us, that they lack some of the lethality that we have, and that we've seen that they've gone after our technologies and in some cases succeeded, in particular with missile technology. And so again, my concern, whether this technology emanates from us or otherworldly, that we know that we possess it. And where's the accountability? Where are the stopgaps? What are the guarantees that if this were to fall in enemy hands, that it isn't immediately weaponized against us? And I'll say this. It is clear from my experience and what I've seen that there is something out there. The question is, is it ours? Is it someone else's? Or is it otherworldly? And Madam Chairman, I would posit that as the legislative body, as the regulatory body, We must know.

▶ ⚠ There is a worry that advanced technologies developed at sensitive R&D locations could be targeted by adversaries, potentially leading to weaponization if such technology were acquired or replicated.

[7684.14s]
Andy Ogles IV U.S. Representative U.S. House of Representatives

And anyone who prevents us from gaining access to that information, I would consider that criminality. Because we have U.S. personnel who may very well be in harm's way. We have technology that ultimately may threaten our very existence. With that, Madam Chairman, I thank you for your indulgence and I yield back.

▶ ⚠ The witness stresses the importance of congressional oversight in understanding UAPs, particularly given their potential implications for national security and the safety of U.S. personnel.

▶ ⚠ The committee allows members five legislative days to submit materials and additional written questions for witnesses.

[7705.17s]
Nancy Mace, U.S. Representative

Thank you, Mr. Ogles. And with that and without objection, all members will have five legislative days within which to submit materials and to submit additional written questions for the witnesses, which will be forwarded to the witnesses for their response. If there's no further business without objection, the subcommittee stands adjourned.

▶ ⚠ The subcommittee adjourns without objection, indicating no further business was pending.

[7738.47s]
---

Thank you.

[7759.98s]
?

Thank you.

[7785.60s]
---

I'm happy for Ella's dad.

[7816.16s]
?

Thank you. Thank you.

UAP Congressional Hearing – November 13, 2024

Hearing Summary

Hearing Index

1. Opening and Context

2. Secret Military UAP Programs

3. UAP Investigations and Analysis

4. UAP Biology and Defense

🎧 Listen to the Hearing

Congressional Hearing on Unidentified Aerial Phenomena

Unidentified Aerial Phenomena Discussion

Investigating Unidentified Aerial Phenomena

Navy Commander’s Testimony on UAP Secrecy

Whistleblower Allegations of Secret UAP Programs

Revealing Secret Military UAP Programs

Congressional Testimony on UAP Crash Retrieval Programs

Secrecy, NDAs, and UAP Witness Testimony

Unseen Aerial Phenomena Explored

Unexplained Phenomena and Information Operations

Unidentified Aerial Phenomena Investigations

Unidentified Aerial Phenomena

Overclassification and UFOs

UAP Biological Materials and Secrecy

Unidentified Aerial Phenomena and Defense

Defining Non-Human Intelligence and Assessing UAP Threats

Ensuring Transparency and Oversight on UAP

NOTES: